Is Taxation legalized robbery?

[Stevicus]

Why is this in general debates? It is quite specifically about one particular nation?
Do some of our less worldly RF members not realize that there are others on the WORLD wide web?

Well, every country has some form of taxation, don't they? So, the same topic could be applied to other countries too, and it might make for a more interesting discussion if other people discuss their countries' tax policies and compare them with other countries. I don't see anything about this topic that would prevent or preclude anyone from talking about other countries.

 

[PureX]

Greed, the love of money is a evil thing.
People will....
Die for it
Kill for it
Steal it
Lie for it
Cheat for it
Lose family friends over it
Do most anything illegal for it
Destroy things for it
Pollute for it
Dump toxins for it
Etc..

The more people get, the more they want/need it. So the above will always happen.

If we let it, yes. But we can acknowledge that greed is poison, and take significant steps to minimize it's damage. Or, we can say it's just inevitable, and do nothing while it destroys everything it touches. I hear a lot of republicans in this country proclaiming the latter. Or worse, trying to claim that greed is actually good for us. And that we should bow to it's inevitability and embrace it's clever ambitions.

 

[Suave]

Past a reasonable amount for societal infrastructure, has taxes been overstepping that line in light that so many people, notably through loopholes, have avoided paying taxes? Why people pursue shelters, or even leave the country?

Also past a lump sum payed to the government, are extra taxes overkill on what one has already paid?

What is a fair amount?

Has it turned into legal robbery in the modern day?

Please let us realize if we our going to have universal health care insurance, we are going to need additional revenue enhancements in order to help us fund this needed benefit. Please let us consider a ten percent value added tax less monthly tax rebate checks to taxpayers for this revenue source being a progressive taxation system in order to generate the additional revenue needed to shift the burden of health care insurance costs from private individuals or employers to our federal government. Every developed nation, save the U.S., has some sort of value added tax and universal health insurance system.

 

[Nakosis]

Past a reasonable amount for societal infrastructure, has taxes been overstepping that line in light that so many people, notably through loopholes, have avoided paying taxes? Why people pursue shelters, or even leave the country?

Also past a lump sum payed to the government, are extra taxes overkill on what one has already paid?

What is a fair amount?

Has it turned into legal robbery in the modern day?

Depends on what the government does with the money.
The government creates exemptions to coerce the business world towards certain behavior.
I think it'd be best to work from a flat tax with no exemptions. Then everyone pays a fair share without the government manipulation.

 

[rocala]

I don't see anything about this topic that would prevent or preclude anyone from talking about other countries.

I would agree if participants would first state which nation they were referring to instead of assuming everybody knows.
It is a big world out there, start recognising this.

 

[PureX]

Please let us realize if we our going to have universal health care insurance, we are going to need additional revenue enhancements in order to help us fund this needed benefit. Please let us consider a ten percent value added tax less monthly tax rebate checks to taxpayers for this revenue source being a progressive taxation system in order to generate the additional revenue needed to shift the burden of health care insurance costs from private individuals or employers to our federal government. Every developed nation, save the U.S., has some sort of value added tax and universal health insurance system.

Most people in the U.S. are getting their health insurance from their employer as part of their labor compensation package. And it represents a significant amount of money each month. If we were to switch to a universal health care system, our employers would have to begin paying that money to us every week instead of to the insurance company. Nearly everyone in the country would receive a substantial monetary raise without costing our employers a single penny. And I am sure most employers would be very happy to be relieved of the burden of dealing with employee health insurance. From that raise (hundreds of dollars per month in most instances), the government could significantly increase the taxes being withdrawn from those paychecks to cover the (much cheaper) cost of universal health care, while leaving a substantial part of that raise in the paycheck for the employee. Meanwhile, the insurance companies can deal with the government instead of our employers, or us, to win the job of insuring us on the government's behalf. Everyone wins but the insurance companies, who now have to compete with each other to try and get the federal government to buy health care insurance from them, to cover us.

 

[icehorse]

Those who earn under $50,000 per year contribute 7% of the total income tax collected and represent 62% of returns filed. Those who earn $500,000 or more contribute 37% of revenue collected and represent only 0.9% of returns.

Lower income folks do not pay more taxes that higher income folks.

Can you see how the stats you cited here are misleading?

 

[Suave]

With some of my enhanced unemployment benefits, I bought 1/10 of bitcoin for a few thousand dollars a few weeks ago. Today, I sold my 1/10 bitcoin for $3,900, thereby making a $900 profit from my investment. How much in taxes would you consider as being a fair amount I should have to pay on $900 of capital gains?

 

[MikeF]

Can you see how the stats you cited here are misleading?

Not misleading, simply factual. If we are to discuss this topic rationally, we have to be talking about real numbers. Some have cited specific billionaires as examples that the rich get away with paying nothing. What percentage of taxpayers are billionaires? Many consider people making $200,000 and above as being rich. I would say most in this range pay their fair share and do not utilize exotic tax shelters.

I think it is prudent to really focus on what the systemic issues are including a realization that allowing for loop-holes that we feel help certain members of the middle-class create opportunity for less desirable loop-holes. It is a multi-factorial problem, not simply rich vs poor.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How much in taxes would you consider as being a fair amount I should have to pay on $900 of capital gains?

What is your gross income? Or, to put it somewhat differently, why should profit be taxed differently than work income? (see here)

 

[Kooky]

Has it turned into legal robbery in the modern day?

Just as murder cannot be legal by definition, the same goes for any other crime, including robbery.

But since you asked, if you compare it to past historical situations, then taxation these days has become far more gentle, subtle, and non-intrusive than it ever used to be, and considerably less onerous for the wealthy.

 

[Suave]

What is your gross income? Or, to put it somewhat differently, why should profit be taxed differently than work income? (see here)

With an annual income of 30k, I suspect I'll be paying 10 percent of $900 or $90 in short term capital gains

 

[Revoltingest]

What is your gross income? Or, to put it somewhat differently, why should profit be taxed differently than work income? (see here)

Because long term capital gains has a component due
to inflation, ie currency devaluation. Why should anyone
pay taxes on the portion profit that's due to more dollars
being required to achieve the same economic value
as dollars from years past?

 

[Suave]

Because long term capital gains has a component due
to inflation, ie currency devaluation. Why should anyone
pay taxes on the portion profit that's due to more dollars
being required to achieve the same economic value
as dollars from years past?

Under my proposed tax and spend plan ( reference post #30), the first 20k of a person's income would be tax-exempt, this exemption amount would likely increase each year based on the consumer price index.

 

[Revoltingest]

Under my proposed tax and spend plan ( reference post #30), the first 20k of a person's income would be tax-exempt, this exemption amount would likely increase each year based on the consumer price index.

This still doesn't address capital gains.
Income calculation should be reduced by currency deflation.
But I favor that all the different capital gains tax rates be
changed to all the full income tax rate. This would benefit
some, & cost others....but it would be fairer than now.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

No, unless you want to go back to the Stone Age. You get a huge number of services from the modern state, from defence, maintenance of order, transport, education, health (in most countries), unemployment benefit, enforcement of laws that stop other organisations from ripping you off or damaging you and your environment, and so on.

A problem is, of course, that living traditionally does not appear to be a well respected human right in western culture. If I want to buy a vacant lot for 60 or 70k in a town around here, I highly doubt the minimum building codes would allow me to easily live in a trailer, tent, or van. If I look them up, I would be sure to find requirements to hook up to the water line and grid. So basically, I am compelled to do what you are saying. It's not a matter of what I want

Nor do I want to use the car on the road all that much. I can walk the mile to work, and often do. Other people like to drive all the time , maybe they are wrecking the road more than I am.

Why should school system around here look like an anthill all summer? I thought school is out, but tax money is surely getting used - how much is being spent today?

Why bother having that many soldiers if there are nuclear bombs?

 

[Revoltingest]

A problem is, of course, that living traditionally does not appear to be a well respected human right in western culture. If I want to buy a vacant lot for 60 or 70k in a town around here, I highly doubt the minimum building codes would allow me to easily live in a trailer, tent, or van. If I look them up, I would be sure to find requirements to hook up to the water line and grid. So basically, I am compelled to do what you are saying. It's not a matter of what I want

And even tiny houses are prohibited many places.

 

[Suave]

This still doesn't address capital gains.
Income calculation should be reduced by currency deflation.
But I favor that all the different capital gains tax rates be
changed to all the full income tax rate. This would benefit
some, & cost others....but it would be fairer than now.

Yeah...I suppose there could be some sort of inflation adjusted capital gains basis. I reckon there's gonna be inflation in order to help us inflate our way out of all the debt that'd happen with all the government spending I favor.

Too bad I was strapped for cash and had to sell my bitcoin investment, that was a great inflation hedge investment.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah...I suppose there could be some sort of inflation adjusted capital gains basis. I reckon there's gonna be inflation in order to help us inflate our way out of all the debt that'd happen with all the government spending I favor.

That's the primary reason government creates inflation
using monetary policy (expanding the money supply faster)
than economic growth. Another reason is "bracket creep",
which is that as wages rise due to inflation, taxpayers move
into higher marginal tax brackets.

 

[exchemist]

A problem is, of course, that living traditionally does not appear to be a well respected human right in western culture. If I want to buy a vacant lot for 60 or 70k in a town around here, I highly doubt the minimum building codes would allow me to easily live in a trailer, tent, or van. If I look them up, I would be sure to find requirements to hook up to the water line and grid. So basically, I am compelled to do what you are saying. It's not a matter of what I want

But you still get the services of law and order, roads, education, laws that protect you as a consumer, and so on. The notion that some character who happens to live off-grid in a hut should not be required to pay tax doesn't bear a moment's serious examination.

If you really want no taxation, go to a deserted desert island, build your hut there and live (and die) there on your own, like Robinson Crusoe.