Is the Christian cross a symbol representing Scapegoating?

[David T]

I didn't cite any text, my claim is that many Christians say "Jesus died for our sins". That idea seems like scapegoating, or a minor variation on scapegoating.

Try not confusing religious dimwits with the text!!! I sort of axe church and text apart they aren't one in the same. Even inside church there are various factions of what is or is not, as it is. It's all a rather confused and very very " normal"group of people actually.

So in a long winded way to your question, some are as you have described, but not all, are as you described. That's a way more interesting question actually, dont you think? Theoretically they should be the same.

 

[blü 2]

Paul does not name Judas or give any details about the betrayal, but in 1 Corinthians 11:23 he refers to the night Jesus was betrayed. This is in the context of the Eucharist formula institution which appears in the three Synoptic Gospels.

Not quite.

In 1 Corinthians 15:2 Paul refers to 'the twelve' apostles, ie includes Judas among those to whom the resurrected Jesus appeared, showing he didn't know the Judas story.

And 1 Corinthians 11:23 says τῇ νυκτὶ ᾗ παρεδίδετο, 'the night he was paredideto', the primary meaning of which is 'handed over'. It can also mean 'betrayed'; but since Paul didn't know the Judas story, 'handed over' would seem the better translation.

(You're likely aware of the body of opinion that the Judas story was a late addition to the basic Jesus narrative, as shown eg above, and by contradictory reports about his fate, which read like 'just deserts' fables, and as Spong says, the contrived and melodramatic nature of the betrayal story generally.)

 

[icehorse]

Since your foundational premise is wrong, according to the narrative given, then the rest of your statments don't need to be addressed.

In what way is that wrong? Be specific.

 

[icehorse]

This idea of Jesus dying for our sins must seem sacreligious to Jews. The ultimate corruption of their beliefs. I can imagine Jews looking at Christian belief and saying to themselves "Are you ****ing kidding me?"

It's just not a good idea to say out loud in a nation full of Christians.

Hey! We're on a debate forum!

 

[Kenny]

The idea that a loving creator created us broken and in sin,

In what way is that wrong? Be specific.

I quoted it very specifically. Don't know how else to say it

 

[icehorse]

@Thief I think you're nitpicking here. I'm happy to acknowledge minor differences between the OT practices and "Jesus died for our sins". But I'd say that there are only minor differences. In both cases, the bottom line seems to be: someone else can take your punishment in your place - what a horrible, horrible idea.

 

[icehorse]

Try not confusing religious dimwits with the text!!! I sort of axe church and text apart they aren't one in the same. Even inside church there are various factions of what is or is not, as it is. It's all a rather confused and very very " normal"group of people actually.

So in a long winded way to your question, some are as you have described, but not all, are as you described. That's a way more interesting question actually, dont you think? Theoretically they should be the same.

I'm happy to agree that not all xians repeat that phrase - thank goodness. But enough of them do that I think it's a point worth shedding sunlight on.

 

[icehorse]

I quoted it very specifically. Don't know how else to say it

Many, many Christians hold the idea that God created them broken and in sin. Are you disagreeing with that?

 

[icehorse]

So in a long winded way to your question, some are as you have described, but not all, are as you described. That's a way more interesting question actually, dont you think? Theoretically they should be the same.

Yes, interesting. But as an atheist, I believe it's all man-made, so it's not surprising that men would come to interpret man-made "scripture" in different ways.

Now if you wanted to say - for the sake of discussion - that the scripture really did come from a supernatural being, then the question does become much more interesting. But taking that assumption, most of the arguments that leap to mind tend towards a cruel and capricious being, not a loving one.

 

[David T]

Yes, interesting. But as an atheist, I believe it's all man-made, so it's not surprising that men would come to interpret man-made "scripture" in different ways.

That's like saying sex is man made. Or music is man made.

 

[icehorse]

That's like saying sex is man made. Or music is man made.

Perhaps I misunderstood - I thought you were referring to scripture? And the music example is interesting. Depending on your definition I would say that music IS man-made.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I see it as forgiving the worst possible thing humanity can do to you.

Which is? There are fates worse than death, after all.

 

[Enoch07]

But isn't it the case that Christians are asked to agree with the idea that Jesus died for their sins? Isn't accepting that idea after the fact, extremely similar to agreeing that scapegoating is a good idea?

No

Scapegoating is forcing/blaming your sins onto another against their will.

The Lord or Christ Himself, decided to be crucified and die so that we can have forgivness. Which is why those of us that believe in the Trinity see this as proof of God's love for us. He basically decided to send a part of Himself to earth to live amongst us, and then die to help us.

What you view as Christians being morally bankrupt/selfish. Is actually proof of God's love/morals/selflessness.

 

[icehorse]

No

Scapegoating is forcing/blaming your sins onto another against their will.

The Lord or Christ Himself, decided to be crucified and die so that we can have forgivness. Which is why those of us that believe in the Trinity see this as proof of God's love for us. He basically decided to send a part of Himself to earth to live amongst us, and then die to help us.

What you view as Christians being morally bankrupt/selfishness. Is actually proof of God's love/morals/selflessness.

I would say that scapegoating is the idea that you can have someone else take your punishment in your place. I'm not talking about god's love here, I'm talking about the person who is trying to avoid punishment - that's the morally bankrupt idea.

 

[David T]

Perhaps I misunderstood - I thought you were referring to scripture? And the music example is interesting. Depending on your definition I would say that music IS man-made.

Well I am alluding to actually playing music not just listening to music.
Atheists have but a partial aspect correct. But where I walk in the wilderness forests, there are no atheists, there are no believers, there are no agnostics. Some might believe I am a pantheist. But that itself is a symptom because belief has zero to do with it.

I say it requires an extra ordinary amount of education, fantasy and confusion to render nature dead which if you look closely at Christian religion that's exactly how they understand nature. Dead dead dead. Dead air, dead sky, dead sun, dead earth, dead cosmos, dead plant matter, dead water. You sort of can't one the one hand say religion, how it understands is bogus, which I agree, and yet adopt its fundemental view on nature as dead. That's the big rub right now. I am certain their text is not about nature as dead. I know it's not.

So eddy vedder hard sun. Awesome song.

 

[Enoch07]

I would say that scapegoating is the idea that you can have someone else take your punishment in your place. I'm not talking about god's love here, I'm talking about the person who is trying to avoid punishment - that's the morally bankrupt idea.

If someone becomes a Christian solely for the idea of escaping punishment they have failed already, and they will not escape punishment.

I am a Christian.

When I die, and stand before God to be judged.

Should I be judged and found wanting.

I accept the fact that I will be destroyed.

Does that sound like someone trying to evade punishment? Because this is the way all Christians are supposed to think. Any who do not think this way are not actual Christians, imho.

Anyways, like I said before.

Now, had Christians made the decision to crucify Christ, you would have a valid scapegoat argument.

 

[Nakosis]

Which is? There are fates worse than death, after all.

Torture, everything that comes before death.
Humiliation, ridicule. Death here, the spear in the side, was more or less a kindness.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God, big crime worthy of all the pain and suffering he went through prior to death.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[icehorse]

If someone becomes a Christian solely for the idea of escaping punishment they have failed already, and they will not escape punishment.

But I'm not making such a black and white claim. I'm saying that of the many ideas related to Christianity, the idea that "Jesus died for your sins". Is a really unhealthy idea. I think that many of Jesus's ideas are good ones. I understand that not all Christians think alike.

But SOME of them do think in this scapegoating sort of way, and my only claim is that THAT is a morally bad idea.

 

[Kenny]

Many, many Christians hold the idea that God created them broken and in sin. Are you disagreeing with that?

I don't have to agree or disagree because when scripture speaks, opinions cease (at least for those who believe in the Christian scriptures).

Can you share with me what scriptue says Adam and Eve were created broken and in sin?

 

[Electra]

wow! I was totally going to do a similar topic yesterday but bailed. It does seam odd the symbol of Jesus is most of the time connected to a cross. What if on your tombstone they did a nice figurine of how you died? let alone all over the world.
This can also turn into the conversation of 'guilt tripping' that seams to be broad in the church.

Personally, I am more swayed towards the ichthys, even though they have both (cross&fishy) been used in prior symbolical meanings.

Is it time for a new symbol of Chirst consciousness?