Is the Christian God the same as the Jewish God?

[Rival]

Guess the Wiki entry needs to be changed...

Okay, but what about other differences I've heard of? For example:

The Temple in Jerusalem was built around 40 years after Abraham and Ishmael made the Qabah.

Mary, mother of Jesus and Miriam sister of Moses are one and the same.

Are those also Hadiths?

The mix up of Mirriam (Moshe's sister) and Miriam (Jesus' mother) is in the Qur'an. I'm not sure the one about the Temple is also in the Qur'an but don't quote me on that; it's been a while since I delved into this stuff. I don't think it is though.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

Guess the Wiki entry needs to be changed...

Okay, but what about other differences I've heard of? For example:

The Temple in Jerusalem was built around 40 years after Abraham and Ishmael made the Qabah.

Mary, mother of Jesus and Miriam sister of Moses are one and the same.

Are those also Hadiths?

I don't remember the bit about the Temple. Nor about the Mary and Miriam mixup.
Maybe there was some confusion about that outside of the quran because the Arabic version of the name Mary is Maryam, which seems close to the name Miriam.
The bit about the qaba in Mecca is according to tradition. The quran mainly speaks about "the House" and that it was located in a place called Bacca. According to Islamic tradition it is the archaic name of Mecca.

 

[Rival]

@Harel13 @Gargovic Malkav

Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
(19:28) O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

Surah 19.

 

[savagewind]

I believe that the Jewish G-d, the Islamic Allah, and the Jehovah's Witnesses' Jehovah are all the same Supreme One GOD. The difference is in how each person perceives "him".

The Earth The Supreme and Only One gave to us. Everything else belongs to "him". IMO We are Earth and God is Heaven. Heaven is for the law imo. Earth is to live on. Nobody is perfect so Jesus is the way to understand that nobody is perfect and Allah if for trying to be and the Jews should be for understanding all that. IMO.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

.

@Harel13 @Gargovic Malkav

Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
(19:28) O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

Surah 19.

Oh yeah that bit, now I remember. In the quran I have in front of me it is explained that "sister of Aaron" is used as a title, because she is supposedly related to Aaron.

 

[Rival]

.


Oh yeah that bit, now I remember. In the quran I have in front of me it is explained that "sister of Aaron" is used as a title, because she is supposedly related to Aaron.

That's reaaaalllly far-fetched imo.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

That's reaaaalllly far-fetched imo.

Oh well. Then you just stick to the Jewish scriptures.
It should be sufficient to get to know what God wants of people anyway.

 

[Harel13]

Marcion didn't think so.

Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia
According to Marcion, the god of the Old Testament, whom he called the Demiurge, the creator of the material universe, is a jealous tribal deity of the Jews, whose law represents legalistic reciprocal justice and who punishes mankind for its sins through suffering and death. In contrast, the god that Jesus professed is an altogether different being, a universal god of compassion and love who looks upon humanity with benevolence and mercy.

But other early Christians desperately wanted to recruit Jews, so they kicked Marcion out and called him a heretic.

I was wondering if someone was going to bring up Marcion. I don't know a lot about his views, but I do know a teensy bit about the general Gnostic views, which, according to Wikipedia, they were mostly in agreement on (what they disagreed on isn't related to this subject). Yes, odd that I and the Gnostics agree on something...

 

[Terry Sampson]

By the way, I've looked this up and it seems the Koran itself does NOT claim Ishmael was the son Abraham offered in sacrifice,

Look again.

it seems the Ishmael and Isaac switcheroo is in the Quran...

Surah 39:

• 83. Of his kind was Abraham.
  84. When he came to his Lord with a sound heart.
  85. He said to his father and his people, “What are you worshiping?
  86. Is it falsified gods, instead of Allah, that you want?
  87. So what is your opinion about the Lord of the Worlds?”
  88. Then he took a glance at the stars.
  89. And said, “I am sick.”
  90. But they turned their backs on him, and went away.
  91. Then he turned to their gods, and said, “will you not eat?
  92. What is it with you, that you do not speak?”
  93. Then he turned on them, striking with his right hand.
  94. And they came running towards him.
  95. He said, “Do you worship what you carve?
  96. When Allah created you, and what you manufacture?”
  97. They said, “Build a pyre for him, and throw him into the furnace.”
  98. They wished him ill, but We made them the losers.
  99. He said, “I am going towards my Lord, and He will guide me.”
  100. “My Lord, give me one of the righteous.”
  101. So We gave him good news of a clement boy.
  102. Then, when he was old enough to accompany him, he said, “O My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you; see what you think.” He said, “O my Father, do as you are commanded; you will find me, Allah willing, one of the steadfast.”
  103. Then, when they had submitted, and he put his forehead down.
  104. We called out to him, “O Abraham!
  105. You have fulfilled the vision.” Thus We re-ward the doers of good.
  106. This was certainly an evident test.
  107. And We redeemed him with a great sacrifice.
  108. And We left with him for later generations.
  109. Peace be upon Abraham.
  110. Thus We reward the doers of good.
  111. He was one of Our believing servants.
  112. And We gave him good news of Isaac, a prophet, one of the righteous.
  113. And We blessed him, and Isaac. But among their descendants are some who are righteous, and some who are clearly unjust to themselves.

(a) Verse 101. Birth of Ishmael
(b) Verses 102-108. Sacrifice of Ishmael, which does not name Ishmael.
(c) Verse 112. Birth of Isaac.

 

[metis]

Side reasons to doubt that the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God include discrepancies between the Torah and the NT, which ties into points made, among other times and places, yesterday on RF: how can one accept that a text was given by a supreme divine entity, yet is greatly flawed, with regards to its predecessor-text?

It is the One and the same God, but there are differing interpretations, thus some beliefs are different, much like within Judaism there can be differences of opinion in various areas. It's like there was a difference of opinion between the Hillel and Shammai schools on how to light the Chanukah candles, nevertheless they did recognize that they were indeed to be lit and what in general was being celebrated.

 

[1213]

While I was raised knowing that the spread of Christianity helped popularize the notion of Monotheism, more recently I've wondered whether the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God. ...

"Jesus came and changed, unknowingly, the God of absolute justice with the god of absolute grace. ...

I think they are the same. God is also merciful in the Old Testament and he is just in the NT. Being merciful doesn’t mean person is not just.

 

[Rise]

"Jesus came and changed, unknowingly, the God of absolute justice with the god of absolute grace.​

That is demostrably false. I can give many examples from beginning to end that show God in the New Testament is still the God who judges evil to bring justice.

Since that person's starting premise is false, everything argument he based upon that false presumption falls apart with nothing left to stand on.




Jesus said it would be better for those who lead a little child astray to have a millstone hung around their neck and thrown into the sea.

John asked the Pharisees coming to be baptized for the remission of sins, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?".

Jesus told a parable of those who came to him and said "have we not done many miracles in your name" and he responded that they were lawbreakers and cast them into outer darkness. A place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Jesus tells the parable of a man who dies and sees men being tortured in some kind of afterlife. The tortured man begs that someone be sent back to the living world so that he can warn his brothers to not come where he is. The man is told that people would not believe even if someone were raised from the dead, if they have not already believed Moses and the prophets which they have already heard. (Jesus's parable is later proven true when Lazarus is raised from the dead but people still don't believe).

Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip.

Jesus said it would be better for Judas that he had never been born. The implication is that is because of what would happen to him for his betrayal.

In Acts we see that ananias and sapphira are judged and struck dead supernaturally because they thought they could deceive the Holy Spirit for personal gain.

In Revelation we see Jesus telling the churches to repent of their sins or various consequences are listed like He will "fight against them with the sword of his mouth".

In Revelation we see Jesus return and kill the enemies of Israel to save Israel from destruction.

We see the anti-christ, the false prophet, and those who followed them, burning in a pit of fire for what they did.

Finally, we see all the dead raised and judged.




Conversely, I can also point to many examples in the Old Testament where God shows grace over judgement.

Probably one of the most clear examples is judgement being reversed against Nineveh in the book of Jonah based on their repentant response. Jonah explicitly says the reason he didn't want to go warn Nineveh because he knew God was gracious and would relent of judging them if the repented. Jonah wanted them judged. Tradition says it's because his family was killed by Nineveh.

We also see Jeremiah explain this facet of how God works by proclaiming that if God intends to do bad to a nation, but they repent, then he will reverse his intention to do bad to that nation. The reverse is also said to be true.

You will see God specifically talked about as being gracious and merciful throughout various Psalms.

The point is that it's clear God in the OT is also a God of grace and mercy, and does not only display judgement.




Therefore, both OT and NT are consistent together in their portrayal of God as both a God of mercy and justice.

 

[Harel13]

That is demostrably false.

Good thing that's not the only reason I brought, then.

So, in other words, you hold that Jews and Christians believe in the same entity?

 

[Rise]

Good thing that's not the only reason I brought, then.

That's the only reason you gave in your first post.

And if that reason is proven to be untrue, then there's nothing left for your opinion to stand on.

Although you made a vague reference to something about "discrepancies between the Torah and the NT". You never gave any specific examples that would allow that to qualify as stating a specific reason for why we should believe the God of the OT and NT are supposedly different.

Your claim that they represent different attitudes towards justice and mercy was the only specific reason you gave. And that belief has been disproven by quoting Scripture.

So, in other words, you hold that Jews and Christians believe in the same entity?

You haven't given us any reason to believe otherwise in your first post.

And I don't see any other reasons given by you anywhere else after a quick scan of this thread. Although if that's not true I welcome you posting what you think your other reasons are.

 

[Harel13]

That's the only reason you gave in your first post

Side reasons to doubt that the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God include discrepancies between the Torah and the NT, which ties into points made, among other times and places, yesterday on RF: how can one accept that a text was given by a supreme divine entity, yet is greatly flawed, with regards to its predecessor-text?

Please read. Thank you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

While I was raised knowing that the spread of Christianity helped popularize the notion of Monotheism, more recently I've wondered whether the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God. Setting aside the question of whether or not the Christian deity has a triune nature or if Jesus is god - if we only look at "God the Father" - is he the same as the Jewish God? I personally vote no, for one main reason, better stated than I could ever by Professor Joseph Klausner in his book Historia Yisraelit (Israelite History), Vol. 3 (with my rough translation into English):

"Jesus came and changed, unknowingly, the God of absolute justice with the god of absolute grace. [One] must love the evil men and the good men, the righteous and the vile, in the same manner and quality, for "your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matt. 5:45). And so sinners and those that don't sin, evil men and good men, wicked ones and righteous ones are equal in their worth before the divinity - and where is the justice? Where is the God of judgment? And if God is merely the God of goodness and grace and love and is not the God of justice and judgment and honesty, then he is not the God of history also. Judaism, whose whole greatness and majesty is - which her God is the God of history ("I am the first and I am the last"), couldn't accept and won't accept this sort of worldview.​

The sinner, that does not repent (for if he does repent, once more he isn't a wicked one, but a completely righteous man and even more - Brachot 34b, Sanhedrin 99a), he confuses the world, he destroys the order of the moral world, and through that - also the order of the natural world. If "the earth is filled with lawlessness" - the "flood" shall come and wipe out the "entire universe" and will break the laws of earth and heaven. In the Thirteen Attributes of Mercy, there are all sorts of good and moral attributes: "mighty in compassion, merciful and gracious; slow to anger and plenteous in kindness and truth; doing kindness unto thousands; forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin" - but also "yet He does not remit all punishment". The Jew says to his God: "Our Father, our King" in the same breath: He - is not just "the Father of mercy" but also "King of judgement" - God of the society, God of the nationality, God of the history. Jesus' concept of divinity, his God of grace and unconditional love, is too exalted for the individual moral
consciousness. For the general consciousness, the social, national and universal, that which for her "the history of the world is the judgement-day of the world", this concept of divinity is destruction and ruin. Judaism, which is essentially socially-nationalistic, could not accept such a concept in any sort of fashion."
​

Klausner goes on and explains further how Jesus' concept of divinity was emphasized in his various moral teachings, but as it's long, I'll leave it at that for now.

Side reasons to doubt that the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God include discrepancies between the Torah and the NT, which ties into points made, among other times and places, yesterday on RF: how can one accept that a text was given by a supreme divine entity, yet is greatly flawed, with regards to its predecessor-text?

That's my opinion. I wanted to start this thread to hear what others have to say on the matter.

Er, God in the NT also punishes the wicked. It was Jesus who introduced the notion of hell for the damned in the Gospels and Revelation has God throwing the wicked into a lake of fire. God in Christian scripture is no more or less merciful or wrathful than God in the Jewish Bible, especially as described by the major Prophets.

 

[Rise]

Please read. Thank you.

I already responded to that:



Although you made a vague reference to something about "discrepancies between the Torah and the NT". You never gave any specific examples that would allow that to qualify as stating a specific reason for why we should believe the God of the OT and NT are supposedly different.

Your claim that they represent different attitudes towards justice and mercy was the only specific reason you gave. And that belief has been disproven by quoting Scripture.



I will expound on that further for you:
What you quoted doesn't represent an actual argument.

What you quoted merely is you stating a conclusion.

You state your conclusion that there are supposedly discrepancies between the OT and NT.

But you never presented an actual reason for why we should believe your conclusion is true.
You have presented no argument or facts to establish your conclusion is true.

Furthermore, you have given no argument for why any particular discrepancy between the OT or NT would force us to conclude that they represent different versions of God.


Now, you might have made those arguments in another thread, but I don't know what thread you're talking about. You have provided no link.

Which is why I said that in your original post you gave no other reason for your claim other than that which I already disproved.

 

[Babygirl2010]

While I was raised knowing that the spread of Christianity helped popularize the notion of Monotheism, more recently I've wondered whether the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God. Setting aside the question of whether or not the Christian deity has a triune nature or if Jesus is god - if we only look at "God the Father" - is he the same as the Jewish God? I personally vote no, for one main reason, better stated than I could ever by Professor Joseph Klausner in his book Historia Yisraelit (Israelite History), Vol. 3 (with my rough translation into English):

"Jesus came and changed, unknowingly, the God of absolute justice with the god of absolute grace. [One] must love the evil men and the good men, the righteous and the vile, in the same manner and quality, for "your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matt. 5:45). And so sinners and those that don't sin, evil men and good men, wicked ones and righteous ones are equal in their worth before the divinity - and where is the justice? Where is the God of judgment? And if God is merely the God of goodness and grace and love and is not the God of justice and judgment and honesty, then he is not the God of history also. Judaism, whose whole greatness and majesty is - which her God is the God of history ("I am the first and I am the last"), couldn't accept and won't accept this sort of worldview.​

The sinner, that does not repent (for if he does repent, once more he isn't a wicked one, but a completely righteous man and even more - Brachot 34b, Sanhedrin 99a), he confuses the world, he destroys the order of the moral world, and through that - also the order of the natural world. If "the earth is filled with lawlessness" - the "flood" shall come and wipe out the "entire universe" and will break the laws of earth and heaven. In the Thirteen Attributes of Mercy, there are all sorts of good and moral attributes: "mighty in compassion, merciful and gracious; slow to anger and plenteous in kindness and truth; doing kindness unto thousands; forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin" - but also "yet He does not remit all punishment". The Jew says to his God: "Our Father, our King" in the same breath: He - is not just "the Father of mercy" but also "King of judgement" - God of the society, God of the nationality, God of the history. Jesus' concept of divinity, his God of grace and unconditional love, is too exalted for the individual moral
consciousness. For the general consciousness, the social, national and universal, that which for her "the history of the world is the judgement-day of the world", this concept of divinity is destruction and ruin. Judaism, which is essentially socially-nationalistic, could not accept such a concept in any sort of fashion."
​

Klausner goes on and explains further how Jesus' concept of divinity was emphasized in his various moral teachings, but as it's long, I'll leave it at that for now.

Side reasons to doubt that the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God include discrepancies between the Torah and the NT, which ties into points made, among other times and places, yesterday on RF: how can one accept that a text was given by a supreme divine entity, yet is greatly flawed, with regards to its predecessor-text?

That's my opinion. I wanted to start this thread to hear what others have to say on the matter.

John 8:57-59 Reference to Exodus 3:14
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Yes, the Christian God is the Jewish God. So say the scriptures.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Odin? That's a new one. Do you mean literally Odin or in a mythic sense?

One proverb from the hovomal:

139. I ween that I hung | on the windy tree,
Hung there for nights full nine;
With the spear I was wounded, | and offered I was
To Othin, myself to myself,
On the tree that none | may ever know
What root beneath it runs.

Some wish to conflate the 'son' with the 'father,' and make jesus into god. If jesus is essentially god, then one can start to see how he may have sacrificed himself to himself. Jesus was of course, speared as well. The cross is the tree of life, rooted in christendom. Jesus died in nine hours. Apparently, I have heard that some folk sources say he was on the cross for nine nights, but I have to find where those are. So then, the far-traveling shape-shifter odin seems to have wanted to map himself into the bible, and perhaps reflect the father through some kind of transmutation.

One issue however, is that the biblical Jesus claims that the act of transformation is not part of his 'will.' But if the deity was in full awareness that it was an immortal spirit being, and wished to become likened closer to the all-father, then I'm not sure why it would care about the physical body that much. This might be a projection of Odin as shapeshifter / trickster, roleplaying the vanity of a young man, or man in his prime

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Surely they are just somewhat differing perceptions of the nature of God, aren't they? It seems to me that no religion can reasonably claim to offer a perfect and complete description.

But isn't this just the problem that never, ever goes away? There is nobody -- on these forums, or anywhere else, that I've discovered -- who has ever tried to offer a complete description of God (let alone a perfect one).

And I think we know the reason for this, and that reason is based in reason (okay, logic, if we must). The moment you declare anything to be "omni-" anything, you have set yourself up for logical contradictions.