Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[Katzpur]

Yes mormonism is christian.

Yup. Even Luciferians recognize that.

The mormons here in Utah try to control everything.

And they fail at that so miserably that the citizens of Salt Lake City (roughly 50% LDS) elected an openly lesbian woman as their mayor. Go figure.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Well, do you blame them?

I mean, really, m'friend; there is a REASON that Mormons ended up in Utah, and it wasn't because they were allowed to live their religion anywhere ELSE.

As well, there ARE still more Mormons than 'regular folk' in Utah. It's still a republic/democracy. If you don't want 'em controlling everything, go get out the vote. Amazing how that works. You might even get some of 'em to go back to being Democrats, though I rather doubt it.

(and, just as an aside....up until Clinton, Utahns WERE as likely to be Democrat as Republican, and previous to that, they were more likely to be Democrat than Republican; Clinton did the most amazing land grab there, and really made Utah unhappy. It'll be awhile before the Democrats are forgiven for that one).

As for me?

I live in California and don't have to worry about it.

I like living in Utah. Eh California I would avoid living there.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

And they fail at that so miserably that the citizens of Salt Lake City (roughly 50% LDS) elected an openly lesbian woman as their mayor. Go figure.

That is quite funny lmao. How did that even happen? Lol

 

[dianaiad]

That is quite funny lmao. How did that even happen? Lol

Probably for the same reason that Logan, Utah, just north of SLC not only had an openly Democrat atheist female mayor for years, but was also the very first town in Utah to issue a marriage license for an openly gay couple.

Dang, those college towns, anyway.....

 

[Sonny]

Just as an fyi....

If one wants to know what the members of any religion mean when they say something, it's best to ask the members of that religion.

I, personally, don't think that you would get a real vision of Judaism by reading 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion," nor would you get an accurate portrayal of Catholicism by reading Jack Chick. I rather doubt that getting your information about Christianity in general from a Muslim Madrasah would be an unbiased source, and I rather doubt that Walter Martin is a good source for Catholic teachings OR Mormon ones.

In that sense, too, I rather recommend against accepting Sonny's view of Mormonism as being objective or unbiased. Or correct.

Because they aren't.

Just fyi.

You know, anyone can lash out at others irrationally. It is only when evidence or counter-evidence is provided that their words are taken seriously. I post what I believe are the facts of the LDS church. Then, to seal the deal, I offer LDS references where anyone can verify what I say. Uhhh, where is your 'proof' that I am not being objective or biased? I don't mind the swipe (been there, had that happen a lot to me by tolerant LDS/supporters) but when it comes without even an attempt to disprove or counter with evidence what I post then it is being deceptive towards all by those who have an ulterior agenda to see the truth squashed or kept hidden. You are opposing my evidence with words. Mere words are not trusted in Science or religion. Evidence is needed to persuade. Where is yours? I will keep posting what I believe is the evidence, with LDS references/sources (book, chapter, page and verse), that the LDS church is not a Christian church and you keep talking. Where I come from they say talk is cheap especially so without the evidence to support it. IMHO, I offer truth, you can neither defend or refute what I say. But, we are waiting for your objective, unbiased evidence...

 

[Katzpur]

* Yawn *

 

[Sonny]

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice began in Gethsemane and culminated on Calvary. I understand the implications of that. It suggests that we believe He suffered more intensely and for a longer period of time than you do. Sorry, but it is what it is.

When the Bible says He suffered greatly and describes what happened we all get it. Jesus was 'marred' more than any man ever. Men cannot forgive our sins or sinful nature or save ourselves. Only a perfect sacrifice would satisfy the requirements of a perfect and righteous God. Jesus' death on the Cross is that spotless price. He hung 'between' heaven and earth showing that He is the Mediator between God and Man and that God had reached down to mankind to save us.

The wonderful thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is taught in His restored Church is that through the gift of Christ's Atonement, we can not only improve, but actually will be rewarded for doing nothing more than trying.

This is one reason why the LDS church is not a Christian one. Humanity can't improve our state. We sold ourselves to Satan and sin and desperately need a Savior who can save us from ourselves. That is what Jesus did on the Cross.

Repentance is a precious gift.

Repentance is an act we do, it is not a gift. What God did for us, thru Jeesus, was provide mercy, grace, unconditional love and forgiveness. If mankind accepts that free gift of God's love then we will be saved. But it is by God's grace, not our works, that we are saved (Eph. 2:8-9)

Here's why I say that: In the 58th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, we read that “he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.”

Yeah, but, it's not that great of a promise, Katzpur bc later on that same LDS god would 'change' his mind on that 'repent/forgive forever' thing, as he does so many times with his unchangeable words. Here is what the LDS god said (proof LDS are not Christian- the Christian God never changes or tell 'fibs' (I posted the above verse and the below one the other day). Just the pertinent part today,
"but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the (LDS) Lord your God." (D&C 82:7)
Katzpur, do you read the D&Cs? If so, do you ever cross-reference them to see the serious contradictions that a 'all-knowing God made? Btw, HOW and WHY does an all-knowing God ever need to change his word to his creation? Doesn't doing that cause fear and confusion (D&C 132)? How can we trust a god that keeps changing his true, unchangeable and forever words to mankind to something different, often the direct opposite?
Then, as if he had forgotten all of the changes he made to his words, he says (talking about Himself/God),
"And he never doth vary from that which he hath said." (Mos. 2:22). Ok, so the LDS god never 'varies'. Wait. Didn't he 'vary' from D&C 58 to D&C 82? A complete turnabout, actually. Now, can we trust him to never change again? What if he tells us next week that everything we did this week was wrong or from the Devil or, simply, not his word? Then what?

One final note: If it makes you feel more as if your words are getting through to people, by all means use all of the caps, boldface type and underlining you want. Maybe that's what your posts need, because obviously the context itself is pretty unconvincing.

Yeah, all of the refutations, with evidence and references, to my posts are almost too much for me to bear. And I thot there wasn't an LDS who had any to offer/counter me. Silly me, huh.

 

[Katzpur]

It's just that nothing you've said is new, Sonny. We're just all sick and tired of refuting the same old stuff, particularly when most of your posts quote the Journal of Discourses, a source several of us have told you a million times is not canonical. I've been addressing posts like yours for twenty years now. I just don't feel like wasting much more of my time. Interestingly enough, you seem to think that if you continue for a long enough time doing what you're doing, you're going to change people's minds. It's not going to happen, Sonny. There are over 354 posts on this thread so far. How many of them have been in support of your position? You could count them on one hand. You're wasting your time. 90% of the people who are participating on this thread are Mormons. We can all see through you. And 99% of the non-Mormons who have posted are on our side. They may not agree with all of our theology, but they are able to spot a nut job when they see one. And despite the fact that they don't believe as we do, they keep on saying, "Yes, Mormons are Christians." If I were to start a thread and were to present my position on any given topic and then ask for other people's input, somewhere along the line, if basically nobody saw things my way, I'd probably figure my tactics weren't working very well, and move on to some other subject. You're just a very, very, very slow learner, Sonny. I'm sorry, but there's no other way to put it.

We sold ourselves to Satan and sin and desperately need a Savior who can save us from ourselves. That is what Jesus did on the Cross.

Speak for yourself, Sonny. I have always been a beloved daughter of my Heavenly Father. I have made many, many mistakes in my life, but I have never sold myself to Satan. I'm really sorry that you did, Sonny. But you really didn't even need to point that out, as it's more than evident from your posts.

 

[Katzpur]

That is quite funny lmao. How did that even happen? Lol

Um... well it probably happened because the LDS Church didn't try to step in and prevent it from happening -- which pretty much shoots down your argument. Look, I'm really sorry you hate living in a predominantly LDS state. I truly hope you are able to leave and find somewhere you'll be happier, but meanwhile, your attitude is not going to help your situation. Just sayin'...

 

[Sonny]

1. It's just that nothing you've said is new, Sonny. We're just all sick and tired of refuting the same old stuff, particularly when all you can do is pull stuff from
2. the Journal of Discourses, a source we've already told you a million times is not canonical. I've been addressing posts like yours for twenty years now. I just don't feel like wasting much more of my time.
3. Interestingly enough, you seem to think that if you continue for a long enough time doing what you're doing, you're going to change people's minds. It's not going to happen, Sonny. There are over 354 posts on this thread so far. How many of them have been in support of your position? A half dozen maybe? You're wasting your time. 90% of the people who are participating on this thread are Mormons.
4. We can all see through you. And 99% of the non-Mormons who have posted are on our side. They may not agree with all of our theology,
5. but they are able to spot a nut job when they see one. And despite the fact that they don't believe as we do, they keep on saying, "Yes, Mormons are Christians."
6. You're just a very, very, very slow learner, Sonny.
7. I'm sorry, but there's not other way to put it.

1. Believe me, there are folks here who have never heard the things I've posted and referenced and are interested in learning more and wondering why you haven't told them these things in all of your time here. But don't worry, I'll tell them. You are close-minded and that is ok- to each his own. But don't get angry at me for exposing/informing what the LDS church taught that shows it is not a Christian church. I mean, the LDS church, itself, taught that is wasn't Christian- or anything else or by or from anyone else. So others here will see that and wonder, as I did, why the LDS church wants to be a Christian church today when it didn't early on.
2. It was your church and your leaders who taught the JoDs 'are' LDS scripture, not me. Try to keep that fact in mind, ok?
3. I'm not trying to get converts, Katzpur. That is wrong and goes against the Rules. fact is, I have intentionally 'not' spoke much about my beliefs so I couldn't be accused of that- and I still was. Nice try, but no prize.
4. See through me? What does that mean? I have lost 34 pounds since that Utah cop (read as: Mormon cop) lied 45 times about (each of those lies are a 2nd-degree felony- perjury. But as expected he was protected and supported. The FBI/DOJ are coming to Utah, tho- eerily familiar of 1857 if you ask me), tortured and crippled me- a severely disabled and innocent man- but I don't think you can see through me just yet.
5. There you go, a tolerant Mormon, name-calling again. Wouldn't it be smarter and better to try to refute what I say with the same generation's words where I quote from? Anyone can say decades or generations later 'we didn't mean it' but when everyone sees that no LDS ever stood up and spoke against the things they taught the 1st 150 or so years then it is clear, to me at least, that they all believed what they said was God's words to them. And, bc their god didn't "quickly sweep" anyone off the earth for teaching those things, it is blatantly obvious that he accepted their words as his gospel, I think. I've heard LDS say JWs are a cult yet I have never known any LDS ask the JWs if they thot they were false. You don't always get the full truth by asking those inside. Even if they knew the whole truth they aren't going to tell it and hurt their church. It takes outside investigation and research to find the truth. Science didn't get what it knows by 'asking' others but by doing the required research to find the truth. That is what I have done. I'm pretty good at it, too (not to toot my own horn too loudly), if you ask me.
6. Well, Katzpur, you are not the first to say that of me. And maybe ur right. But if there is one thing I know very well it is the doctrines and beliefs, even the failed God-given ones, of the LDS church. At least that is what I think. I could be wrong. Been wrong before.
7. Oh, now, there are a lot of ways to put it. Such as take the quotes from LDS sources I offer and produce quotes from other LDS leaders who lived 'at that time' and show they spoke against what the other LDS leaders were teaching. Don't use the decades/generations later quotes. They have too much time to PR them- and the LDS god becomes a liar when they modern ones do that (IMO) bc he said he'd quickly sweep the leaders off the earth if they misled his church. If they aren't true today then someone did lead his church astray. I like to say, Facts don't lie, people do.

 

[Katzpur]

I have lost 34 pounds since that Utah cop (read as: Mormon cop) lied 45 times about (each of those lies are a 2nd-degree felony- perjury.

You actually asked a cop who arrested you what his religion was?!?!?! That is freaking hilarious!

Facts don't lie, people do.

Yup. You certainly are proof of that. Have a nice day, Sonny. I'm kind of busy right now -- packing for a wonderful, three-week cruise vacation to New Zealand and Australia. I'll miss you while I'm gone, though.

 

[McBell]

You know, anyone can lash out at others irrationally.

Still waiting for you to stop lashing out irrationally.

It is only when evidence or counter-evidence is provided that their words are taken seriously.

So you DO understand why you ar enot taken seriously in this thread.

I post what I believe are the facts of the LDS church. Then, to seal the deal, I offer LDS references where anyone can verify what I say.

Then, when flat out told you are not citing doctrine, you merely brush the fact away and continue on like it was not said.

That reveals your level of honesty.

Uhhh, where is your 'proof' that I am not being objective or biased? I don't mind the swipe (been there, had that happen a lot to me by tolerant LDS/supporters) but when it comes without even an attempt to disprove or counter with evidence what I post then it is being deceptive towards all by those who have an ulterior agenda to see the truth squashed or kept hidden.

Yet you flat out staqte that you know something presented is nothing but lies without ever looking at it?

You are opposing my evidence with words. Mere words are not trusted in Science or religion. Evidence is needed to persuade. Where is yours? I will keep posting what I believe is the evidence, with LDS references/sources (book, chapter, page and verse), that the LDS church is not a Christian church and you keep talking. Where I come from they say talk is cheap especially so without the evidence to support it. IMHO, I offer truth, you can neither defend or refute what I say. But, we are waiting for your objective, unbiased evidence...

And you still have not shown that your interpretations are the one true way of the Christian.

 

[McBell]

1. Believe me, there are folks here who have never heard the things I've posted and referenced and are interested in learning more and wondering why you haven't told them these things in all of your time here.

Since you are at best simply wrong, and at worse a bold faced liar...
That you keep going on and on even after being told what you are saying is wrong and why it is wrong is what makes you look like the latter of the two.

You keep going on about evidence but then refuse to look at any evidence that shows you are just plain flat out wrong. Which only furthers the suspicion you are a bold faced liar.

 

[Katzpur]

So you DO understand why you are not taken seriously in this thread.

I seriously don't think he does. I think he genuinely believes that everyone here is hanging on his every word and is so relieved that someone has finally come along to tell them the truth about Mormonism. Yeah. Seriously. I think he's deluded enough to actually believe that.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Um... well it probably happened because the LDS Church didn't try to step in and prevent it from happening -- which pretty much shoots down your argument. Look, I'm really sorry you hate living in a predominantly LDS state. I truly hope you are able to leave and find somewhere you'll be happier, but meanwhile, your attitude is not going to help your situation. Just sayin'...

I like living in Utah. It is nice here. Just some of the mormon are quite pushy about mormonism.
Back in 2015 I encountered a mormon missionary. I thought it was the UPS guy and I opened the door to mormon missionary. It was a awkward encounter. He thought I knew spanish so they gave me one of his cards in spanish. lololololololol. I think he thought I was Mexican even though I am Romanian.

 

[Sonny]

1/2- This is gonna take 2 posts.

The first great commandment of all eternity is to love God with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength—that's the first great commandment. But the first great truth of all eternity is that that God loves us with all of His heart, might, mind and strength."

The question was, is the LDS church a Christian church. This is another proof it isn't. In the Christian church there is one greatest or first Commandment or responsibility, to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, strength and soul. The 2nd is, to love our neighbor as we love our self.
But in the LDS church, it appears to me, there are a bunch of 'firsts', 'greatest', 'grandest' , and 'most important' responsibility. I did a look-see and found some but to explain is a bit long. Here they are with a comment or two, (notice that there are numerous LDS printed and published books used)

What does the LDS church teach is man’s ‘greatest responsibility’?

1. Speaking about Baptism for the Dead (B4D) Joseph Smith (1st LDS prophet) taught,
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead.” (The Teachings of the Prophet JS (TPJS) 356, History of the Church (HoC) 6:313).

2. Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS prophet) reiterated that teaching by quoting JS,
"It is the greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us- to seek after our dead (B4D)." (Doctrines of Salvation (DoS) 1:268, 2:149).

3. Joseph Fielding Smith (10 LDS prophet) taught,
“But the greatest and grandest duty of all is to labor for the dead (B4D).” (DoS 2:149, Gospel Principles (GP) 248).

4. Brigham Young (2nd LDS prophet) taught,
“This doctrine of baptism for the dead (B4D) is a great doctrine, one of the most glorious doctrines that was revealed to the human family.” (Discourse of Brigham Young (DBY) 399)

5. Joseph Fielding Smith wrote (and the LDS church published) ‘The Way to Perfection’ (W2P). In this book the LDS church teaches,
“But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become saviors.” (W2P 153). He goes on to quote JS statement. (see #1).

6. Joseph F. Smith (6th LDS prophet) taught in ‘Gospel Doctrine’ (GD) under the heading “The Truest Greatness”,
“Our first care, after all, brings us back to that beautiful admonition of our Savior: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:33).” (GD 285).

7. Joseph Smith taught,
“After all that has been said, the greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.” (TPJS 113).

8. Joseph Smith also taught (God is a man),
“The first principle of the Gospel [is] to know for a certainty the Character of God…he was once a man like us. (TPJS 345/6, GP 293).

9. The LDS publication (for their Sunday Schools) ‘Messages for Exaltation’ (M4E) states,
“The first principle of the gospel is…faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” (M4E 150)

10. From the ‘Lectures on Faith’ (LoF), which was in all D&Cs from the first edition (1835) to 1920, this is taught:
“Faith, being the first principle in revealed religion, and the foundation of all righteousness.” (LoF 1:1)

11. “The very first principle was faith in the Messiah.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church- Wilford Woodruff (TPC-WW) 71). [WW was the 4th LDS prophet)

12. The LDS publication ‘Search These Commandments’ (StC) quotes Charles W. Penrose when he “chided a bishop for placing a sign in the chapel that said: “Order is the first law of heaven.” President Penrose said this was incorrect because obedience is that first law.” (StC 122/23, Mormon Doctrine (MD) 539).

13. David O. McKay (9th LDS prophet) wrote (and the LDS church published) ‘Gospel Ideals’ (GI). It states,
“Third, let us never lose sight of the principles of obedience. Obedience is heaven’s first law.” (GI 484).

14. Joseph Fielding Smith taught,
"They taught the people two basic principles: faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance. After new converts had faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their redeemer and had repented of their sins, they received two basic ordinances: baptism by immersion and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. These were the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.” (GP 99).

15. John Taylor (3rd LDS prophet) taught, (Eternal Marriage)
“It was necessary that one grand truth should be unlocked. (JoD 11:221).

16. John Taylor taught,
Polygamy “is one of the greatest principles that was ever taught revealed to man.” (JoD 11:222).


Notes and comments (my personal opinions):
Now let’s take a closer look at these LDS teachings and see what we find about the LDS church. First, I take it to mean that the words “the greatest responsibility in the world”, “greatest and grandest duty of all”, “first care”, “first principle of the gospel”, “the very first principle”, “first law” all refer to the greatest duty or responsibility. First and greatest as used here must be synonymous.

Second, it is impossible for the LDS god to have different beliefs (doctrines) as his first law, grandest duty and greatest responsibility? I’m confident everyone sees the futility of saying otherwise. That would be preposterous If it’s God’s first law to man then it must be man’s greatest responsibility to God (to obey or observe). That only stands to reason to reasonable people and certainly to an all-powerful and all-knowing god. Why would the LDS god give his first ‘principle’ (principle means= a foundational doctrine) that wasn’t also the greatest to be obeyed? That would be silly, even ridiculous. So first also must mean greatest.

What I mean is this, is Baptism for the Dead (B4D) “the greatest responsibility in the world” (1-5) or is our “greatest and most important responsibility to preach the gospel” (7).

The LDS church doesn’t stop there. They toss out yet another doctrine as their “greatest responsibility”. The Mormon Church teaches their “first care” (grandest duty, greatest responsibility) is now to “seek ye first the kingdom of God” (6).

Are they aware of what they are teaching?

The LDS church goes on to teach “the first principle of the Gospel… is to know that God is a man”. (8)

The LDS church wasn’t finished, the first principle of the gospel changed to having “faith in Jesus”. (9, 10, 11)

Brigham Young turned around and taught baptism for the dead (B4D) is only one of the greatest doctrines. (4) Is it the greatest or not? Surely someone like BY- the prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS god, church and people who spoke to his god all the time- knew how important this ‘eternal’ doctrine was.

Surprisingly, the LDS church didn’t stop there, either.

Joseph Fielding Smith taught the “greatest responsibility is to become saviors” (5).

But LDS scripture teaches there is only one Savior.
“HEAR, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God and besides him there is no Savior.” (D&C 76:1).

So how can the LDS people be saviors when Jesus is the only one? As if that wasn’t enough the Church then taught,
“Obedience is the first law of heaven” (13).

How many 'firsts' can any church have? Surely, every principle can’t be the first or greatest. Isn’t that a hopeless contradiction in terminology?

Next the LDS church taught the first two principles were faith and repentance. But in that same paragraph they teach the first two ordinances were baptism by immersion and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. And they ended it by stating, “These were the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.” (14).

Aren't ordinances and principles the same?
or·di·nance; Noun:
1. A piece of legislation enacted by a municipal authority.
2. An authoritative order; a decree.

prin·ci·ple; Noun:
1. A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
2. A rule or belief governing one's personal behavior.

So, all four can’t be the ‘first’. But, the LDS church teaches that all 4 of these are, in one form or another, its greatest responsibility:

Baptism for the Dead B4D (1-5),
Seek ye first the kingdom of God (6),
Preaching the Gospel (7),
The knowledge that God is a man (8),
Having faith in Jesus (9-11),
Obedience is heaven’s first law (12, 13),
Faith in Jesus, repentance, Baptism by immersion and Laying on of the hands (14)

 

[Sonny]

2/2-
Next, we come to this teaching, the LDS Church’s “greatest commandment”.
The LDS church’s publication ‘Gospel Principles’ (GP) teaches,
“The first and greatest commandment tells us: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart…” (GP 6, 213, Jesus the Christ (JtC) 549/50).

Joseph Fielding Smith taught,
"...and the greatest of all commandments is, that we love him (God)." (DoS 1:5).

Joseph F. Smith, in his book (published by the LDS church) ‘Gospel Doctrine’ (GD) under the heading of “Question of Church Leaders”, taught,
“We have come to ask you if you are in strict accord with the two great commandments: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, *** and thy neighbor as thyself.” Improvement Era, Vol. 21, p. 98, December, 1917; Matt. 22:34-40.” (GD 270).
Finally, the LDS church gets it right with the two 'greatest' commandments. (the first is by default the greatest which should be the first given, right?)

Then we have this teaching from Brigham Young,
“As I said once to my brethren in the School of the Prophets, I have not asked you, I dare not ask you to fulfill almost the first requirement of the Kingdom of Heaven, almost the simplest principle, and one of the first things that should be observed. … You may ask what is it? It is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy mind and with all thy strength, and thy neighbor as thyself. Now, is this not almost one of the first requirements that God has made of his people?” (DBY 21, JoD 12:229).

“Almost” the first (greatest) requirement of God? Seems a strange thing to say for the longest serving prophet the LDS church has ever had.

Laws, principles, doctrines, ordinances and commandments are, basically, the exact same thing. So, shouldn’t the greatest commandment the LDS god ever gave to his people be their greatest responsibility? I mean, when is “the greatest” the greatest if not when it comes from your god? And, how many “greatest” can there be?

What really set all of this in concrete are these teachings from the LDS church published work ‘The Way to Perfection’.
“Gospel ordinances cannot be changed” (W2P 172)
“All the principles of the Gospel are eternal” (W2P 173)

David McKay in Gospel Ideals (last words in the book) taught,
“If you would be happy, obey the principles of the gospel.” (GI 503).

How do you obey a principle that keeps changing? Which teaching is really the first or greatest? There can be only one greatest and that must be the first and be the truth. But which one is it?

Heber C. Kimball taught,
“Truth is an attribute of the nature of God.” (JoD 11:209).
And,
“Truth is a knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; and whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.” (JoD 11:210).

I want to add a few more of what the LDS church called their “greatest”, “most important” and grandest” principles.

What is the LDS church’s “greatest gift” of all?
Salvation- D&C 6:13, 14:7
Holy Ghost- (TPC-WW 49
Eternal Life- (TPC-WW 73, D&C 14:7)
Free Agency (the highest law)- (TPC-WW 210)

There is one more teaching that is so important to the LDS church and members and in your face bold (even today because it is an eternal doctrine) that no LDS can become a God if they refuse to obey it. In fact, no LDS can be exalted (saved) if they simply disobey this teaching. What is this LDS principle that is so great (the greatest of all responsibilities) that any LDS who does not obey it will be damned?
It is Polygamy.
This is some of what the LDS church teaches about this eternal “principle”.

“It is a principle that God has revealed for the salvation of the human family. He revealed it to Joseph the Prophet in this our dispensation; and that which he revealed he designs to have carried out.” (Journal of Discourses (JoD) 5:204).

“…as sacred a revelation as was ever given to any people.” (JoD 11:210).

“This doctrine is a holy and pure principle.” (JoD 11:210)

“I speak of plurality of wives as one of the most holy principles that God ever revealed to man.” (JoD 11:211).

“It was a revelation given unto JS from God, and it was made binding upon His servants. … JS told others; he told me (John Taylor- 3rd LDS prophet), and I can bear witness of it, “that if this principle was not introduced, this Church and kingdom would not proceed. When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church, that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them.” (JoD 11:221).

That is a very important “responsibility! No other responsibility was ever given by the LDS church that had such dire and destructive consequences for being disobeyed. And, to my knowledge, no other LDS teaching has been called a doctrine, a principle and a commandment and carried the threat of having “the keys of the kingdom” taken away for not obeying it. Is this not the “greatest” of all LDS ‘principles’? Yet, today, the LDS Church rejects this major ‘Doctrine, Principle and Commandment their god issued to JS at the point of a sword held by an angel.

“Hence it is emphatically a religious subject so deep, sacred, and profound, so extensive and far-reaching, that it is one of the greatest principles that was ever revealed to man.” (JoD 11:222).

“This great eternal marriage covenant lays at the foundation of the whole (LDS religion); when this was revealed, then followed the other. Then,… and not til then, could the restoration be effectually commenced, time and eternity be connected, the past, present, and future harmonize, and the eternal justice of God be vindicated.” (JoD 11:223).

That is an awful lot riding on a doctrine the LDS church today rejects as patently false.

“Plural marriage is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to man in any age of the world. Without it man would come to a full stop; without it we never could be exalted to associate with and become gods.” (JoD 21:10).

 

[Katzpur]

Whatever. You certainly are dedicated to your cause, Sonny. Perhaps you should give some thought to getting a life, though, because nobody is listening to you! Nobody. Do you not get that? Do you seriously think you have convinced even one person on this forum that you know what you're talking about? Doesn't that make you feel kind of invisible?

 

[Sonny]

I seriously don't think he does. I think he genuinely believes that everyone here is hanging on his every word and is so relieved that someone has finally come along to tell them the truth about Mormonism. Yeah. Seriously. I think he's deluded enough to actually believe that.

Deluded, am I? That sounds to me to be really strange coming from a member of the LDS church. They taught then printed then collected and published 'all' of their sermons, which contained the LDS church's doctrines, beliefs, revelations and prophecies, and told every "right-minded Saint" to 'go out and buy each copy as they comes off the press' bc they were "part of the standard works of the church' but now the LDS church teaches none of them mean what they say and don't mean anything to anyone and the LDS people accept that as true and you say 'I' am deluded. Ohhh, that was a good laugh. Thank you!

PS- Here's the Journal of Discourses Volume 8,Title/Preface page. What it says is,
The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as ONE of the standard works of the church. Now, where I come from we call that either one of the LDS church's standard works or an outright and bald-faced lie. If the JoDs aren't a SW then the LDS church leaders are telling falsehoods. I guess you know what that makes the leaders if these are not what they said they were (SW). Can't have it both ways- either the leaders lied and profited heavily on their lies or they are from God and are, indeed, the SW.
You know what they say,
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. I don't know who said it or why but it fits here with this church perfectly.

 

[Sonny]

Whatever. You certainly are dedicated to your cause, Sonny. Perhaps you should give some thought to getting a life, though, because nobody is listening to you! Nobody. Do you not get that? Do you seriously think you have convinced even one person on this forum that you know what you're talking about? Doesn't that make you feel kind of invisible?

I feel so bad that no one is listening or cares. So why do you care so much? It sure seems to me like I've made a huge impact on you. I am certain there are others listening and learning. There 'always' are those who really do want to know the while truth, not just half-truths and whole falsehoods some tell. Plus, I have references that prove I don't lie. Thanks, for caring so much.