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Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

Sonny

Active Member
Early Christian theology, for one, was very varied. You had Arians, Miaphysites, Monophysites, Binitarians and Trinitarians, Docedists...
Thus the need for a determined group to sit down and discuss then adopt rules for what constitutes a...
Christian
Muslim
JW
Mormon
Mechanic
Electrician
Plumber
Lawyer
etc.
We hear about people who 'pretend' to be Doctors these days. Can we tell them they aren't Doctors? If so, hy aren't they? What determines they aren't? Who determines they aren't?
See, there are reasons and rules for everything. No one can simply say they are 'thus and so' w/o some scrutiny. This is why, one reason, I started the OP with a question. Regardless of the outcome no one is saying this church/group/religion is true or that one is false. All I'm asking is, is the LDS church a Christian church. Since everything has guiding rules to define themselves, what do the rules say? I believe the rules/guidelines say 'No' to the question and then I offer reasons to show why.
 

Sonny

Active Member
In the Buddhist view, there are a multitude of deva-gods, with immensely long lives and great powers. How do we know that one of those devas didn't announce a "prophecy" and then fulfill it himself?

To give an analogy: ants live about 3 months. What if I find a way to communicate with ants, announce that a great flood will overwhelm their ant hill in 3 generations, then I come back in 9 months and pour a pitcher of water into their anthill? Does that make me God Almighty?
I like your analogy. Believe me, some do just that. I know of one fella that did similar things- and got away with it... for a while.
In a sense, Yes, you are prophesying of a coming event. Bc God is seeing the Universe before it was created and seeing the end of this planet at the same time, right now, He does what you did. However, most prophecies/predictions are given by one person and fulfilled by another or by natural events or super-natural events or persons (be they aliens, angels or God Himself or any other creature He may have created). The thing about every prophecy that I've seen in the Bible is they always occur in ways no one saw coming. But, in some circumstances, they should have been noticed. An example of that last statement is, dividing lines on our roads in the early days of cars. Many accidents happened bc there were no clear 'side of the road' rules. A simple white line in the road, that no one thot of, stopped most of those accidents. But, still the prophecies were fulfilled bc no one took notice of what could have been prevented. Many prophecies, however, are unimaginable to the people and times in which they are given- a 200 million-man Army when there were only 50 million people on earth is one example.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Its 70 percent, the number is 70 percent of people in America identify as Christian. That include Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Universal Christian church, Quae doesn't requite belief in Jesus as God . So its actually if you dont count churches that mainstream Christian churches don't count its really 65 percent of America is Christian.
There has never been a time when America was 100% Christian- at least not since America became an independent nation. There has been high 90s percentiles (I know of 97% at one time) . But America (USA) was founded by Christians for Christianity and our laws are, clearly, biblically based. Before anyone replies to this, ask yourself what other formats were available for our Founders to use and see if those systems became America's laws. Would Islam's Sharia law be the format used for America? How about Buddhism or Hinduism? That is what I (we) mean by 'America's laws are biblically based laws'.
 

Sonny

Active Member
That's because you believe in it, but that opinion is not shared by billions of others. The Bible is a great book, imo, but it's not the only book.
It is a great book- for life, our individual lives, society, world peace and more. What other books of religion do you think has the same to offer?
 

Sonny

Active Member
1. Christianity was far from cohesive even by the end of the first century.
2. I'm amazed as how relatively few Christians recognize that.
1. All they had were the letters the Apostles had written. Some had only heard certain sermons (doctrines) to live by. It is one thing to not have the Bible and not know it or follow it. But it is something else to have it and reject or deny it for no reason or bc of other people who have told them it was mistranslated or had been mutilated by men. Excuses can be made for the former but never for the latter.
2. I'm amazed at that, too. The problem seems, to me, to be 'out of mind, out of sight' sort of thing. People often don't see what generations before them saw and went thru unless they are studying it in college to be a profession- Economics, Agriculture, Mechanical or Electrical Engineers, etc.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Thank God for men like Christopher Bond.
If only he had known more about who issued the first Extermination Oreder. Maybe, then, he would have mentioned that part as well. But, few people, comparatively, know that it was the godly LDS church's founder and 1st prophet and his right-hand man, Sydney Rigdon, who authorizd, issued and sold/spread the Mormon extermination order on (of all days!) July 4th, 1838.

As to Sonny's claim that the LDS Church has never apologized for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that, too, is a lie. A monument honoring those who died in the massacre stands today near the spot where it look place, and when that monument was dedicated, the Church issued the following statement:
"What was done here long ago by members of our Church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct. We cannot change what happened, but we can remember and honor those who were killed here. We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley... and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time. A separate expression of regret is owed the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre. Although the extent of their involvement is disputed, it is believed they would not have participated without the direction and stimulus provided by local church leaders and members. The church has worked with descendant groups ... to maintain the monument and surrounding property and continues to improve and preserve these premises to make them attractive and accessible to all who visit. We are committed to do so in the future."

Katzpur, a 'profound REGRET' is not I am/we are sorry for what WE did to those innocent American citizens that we murdered and butchered then stripped naked and piled in 2 stacks (men, women) and intentionally left to be eaten by wild animals.
Did you see the difference? Can you? Regret is neither sorrow not appropriate under those circumstances. Oh, and the LDS church owns the land the monument is built on. That's why the Christian families of those murdered can't place a Cross on the property. IMO, half truths are always whole lies. I almost went to the ceremony. I couldn't get off work. I've been there and I'll post some photos of the place.
 
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Sonny

Active Member
Wait.

You have not even "seen it", yet you somehow know that Katzpur only heard one side, and you are already certain that said side is lying outright?

Are you sure that is what you mean to say?
Look at my reply to her. I have lived around LDS for more than 3 decades. I know how they think and talk. They will never, imo, tell the whole truth about anything from their past bc it will make them the real bad guys- not the Gov. of Mo., not the people in every city/state they moved into and was run out of, not the Gov't or the country (both of which the LDS church has issued prophecies [their god said it] of complete and total destruction on all of us. I'll post them, too. And more.
 

Sonny

Active Member
You think I should? :rolleyes: Oh, that's rich. :D No, I would not care to retract that comment because it is an accurate statement of what we believe. But thank you for giving me the opportunity to reemphasize it:

"We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him."
Funny how you left out the rest of my post. IMO, you did what LDS always do- half truths, whole lies. I shouldn't be surprised but it never fails to do just that- and saddens me.
 

McBell

Unbound
Proof, please. I post LDS sources, LDS post their opinions, imo.
That is the problem, your "opinion" just just does not line up with the truth or the facts.
You made numerous claims concerning Mormon Doctrine that you were repeatedly shown to b e just pl,ain flat out wrong.
Yet you persisted in repeating the same wrong claims...

What makes you think you are the one who gets to decide what is and what is not doctrine for Mormons?


BTW
I am STILL waiting for you to produce the "One True Christian Way"...
 

Sonny

Active Member
Slightly out of context, there. ... but the History of the Church IS online and you can find it. It's in chapter 19, by the way, and the talk he gave begins by claiming that he was dealing with many persecutions (in fact, he was) and that whatever his enemies wanted, he would be the precise opposite; if they wanted a 'beardless boy" to be humble, HE would climb on a mountain and 'roar..." that his enemies, no matter how hard they try to 'spoke him under," would not win because God is in the 'still small voice,' and however, many persecutions Joseph himself received...in order to 'keep him humble,' he said, that he would beat them.
Look, LDS making excuses for the early leaders and what they taught as their god's doctrines, beliefs and SW is, to me, nothing new and always wrong. But, I will post the page from MY copy of the History of the Church (HoC 6:408/9) so all can see what, in context, JS said. I never quote other sites/sources unless I specifically state I am. I do my own, personal, research. I think you should, too- or do more of it- and stop believing what others tell you.

So what he did here was to take Jesus' words in John 14: 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Then he made the statement you quoted. Was it overblown and more than a bit over the top? Sure. However, it was a rhetorical device, common in speechmaking then AND now, and not something he went around claiming all the days of his life.
No where does Jesus ever say 'you will do MORE than Me'. What, precisely, did JS create? What did he do that wasn't already done or here? If you can't provide anything then JS, imo, lied through his teeth. God's prophets don't lie. If I say to someone (I AM NOT SAYING THIS!) I am going to shoot the Prez. is anyone going to defend me by saying it was part of a bigger speech about this or that? I think not. JS doesn't get special privileges, either. Any person who speaks to God never acts like that. Isaiah said, "I saw the LORD (Jesus to LDS) sitting on a throne, high and lifted up" (Is. 1:1). Next, he said, "I said: Woe is me, for I am undone! BC I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." (Is. 1:5).
God is holy, righteous and perfect. But JS makes it nothing to be God's equal and, in fact, his greater. These are words, to me and millions of Christians, of pure blasphemy. JS truly believed/meant what he said (that he did MORE than Jesus) and here are, to me, more comments that prove it.
Joseph Smith said, "Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life." (Joseph Smith quoted in "Life of Heber C. Kimball", 322)

Joseph Smith also said, "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS ever did it. I BOAST THAT NO MAN EVER DID SUCH A WORK AS I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. (HoC 6:408/9)

Mormonism teaches that it is Joseph that will decide who gets into heaven (not Jesus Christ)- -
NAMELY, THAT NO MAN OR WOMAN IN THIS DISPENSATION WILL EVER ENTER INTO THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF JOSEPH SMITH." "Many will exclaim- "Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" BUT IT IS TRUE." (JoD 7:289)

The LDS also 'taught' JS is a God- -
"HE REIGNS THERE AS SUPREME A BEING IN HIS SPHERE, CAPACITY, AND CALLING, AS GOD DOES IN HEAVEN." (JoD 7:289)
and
You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, AND LOOK UPON HIM AS A GOD. (JoD 5:88).
Clearly, (Yes, clearly), JS is setting everyone up for his/LDS church's later teachings that he/JS is Jesus or God- Certainly, he is saying that in his own eyes he is greater than Jesus, imo.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Sonny, you are using a very circular argument here.

Your criticism of him is only valid if Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet. If he was, then he was indeed what you are criticizing him for claiming that he was. Why are you criticizing him for telling the truth?

What you can't do, logically, is to use what YOU say his claims were to prove that he was not what he claimed to be.

I mean, really, Sonny:

Is it logical to claim that if a man says he's an astronaut, this proves that he's NOT one? I think that if the man claiming to be one was John Glenn, you might have a problem with your logic.

Or, as Walt Whitman said, "if you done it, it ain't bragging."]/quote]
So you are admitting that JS is greater/did more than Jesus Christ? Am I hearing you right? First off, there is no proof that JS was even a preacher of God, let alone a prophet. As the National Geographic Society and the Smithsonian Institutes stated, when some of us wrote them in the 90s, nothing JS said about the BoM is scientific or true from any scientific POV. His claims, such as they were, cannot be verified or proved. The LDS church actually states/teaches that everything must be tested and proved/verified for it to be believed or true. JS fails, imo, the tests of the Bible and his own church's teachings about truth/facts.

How can we know for certainty 'if' JS was a true Prophet of God or a complete fraud and false prophet of the devil? (OP- finding this out will determine if the LDS is Christian or not)

Since, we believe, God never fails in anything he says or does- He is All-Powerful and All-Knowing- it stands to reason that if God said it nothing can change or prevent it. Describing a false prophet is just as easy. They do the opposite of what a true Prophet of God does. They lie, deceive, give fake revelations and false prophecies. In fact, I'll let Joseph Smith describe how to tell a false spirit (angel and prophet) from a true one.

In Hoc. 4:571-581, Titled "Try the spirits", Joseph Smith, speaking about the Egyptian's and Moses' "miracles", declared they (Egyptians) couldn't tell who the miracles came from "until they came to be tested together." (571)

He says every one who speaks for God professes to be competent to "try his neighbor's spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason?" Because there is "no criterion (set measures, rules, tests) whereby they can test it." (573)

He went on to say all nations and all religions, including LDS, have had false spirits in, and "have been deceived" by them (573). And, he says, "for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God." (573)

JS says, Moses could "show (again, proof or tests) he was God's servant" (575).
"The Ephesian church were enabled (to determine true from false) by this principle, "to try those that said they were apostles, and were not, and found them liars." (Rev. ii:2 [or, Rev. 2:2])" (575)

Lastly, JS said two of the ways to tell a false angel is, "By the color of his hair." (Sonny- Really?!) "And by his contradicting a former revelation (applies to spirits and prophets). (581)

JS says prophecy (revelation) (574), the Priesthood (574, 580), the evidence (prove or test- if their prophecy came true or not) (577-579, 581) and the Scriptures or word of God (576, 581 ) are the means to test the spirits and know who it is from (Devil or God).

I wonder, since JS said the priesthood and revelation were two of the means, how do we know God even spoke to JS? After all, the only evidence we have is JS's own words to that effect- and that is simply not good enough for any truth seeker. Where is the proof (which JS said was needed) and what do the scriptures say about JS words (prophecies, revelations, doctrines)?

We must test what anyone says when it comes to God. But, what are the best tests?
Feelings? No, the Bible never speaks of feelings as a way to 'know' or 'test' anything from God.
Take their word on it? No, never. People love to lie, cheat, steal and defraud others- even, or especially, in religion.
Examine the evidence? Yes. First and foremost examine the evidence. The Bible and LDS leaders/doctrine say to test the evidence.
What is the evidence? It is what they said and what God's Holy Word (Scriptures) states.
How do we test it? By the tests given in the Bible and whether or not their words (doctrines, revelations, prophecies) are consistent and come true.

We know the Bible goes against JS's teachings. And, we know JS's own teachings (doctrines and prophecies) contradict themselves. But, what about LDS leaders? What have they said about JS being a prophet? Here are some of their words.

"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of JS. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND (emphasis mine). If JS was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, THEN HE SHOULD BE EXPOSED; HIS CLAIMS SHOULD BE REFUTED, AND HIS DOCTRINES SHOWN TO BE FALSE, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures (Doctrines of Salvation (DoS) 1:188)

Okay, the LDS want us to test what JS said and did (but they get mad at me and slur, name-call when I do what they said I should. Imagine that one). And we know how- the evidence and the Bible. But what about Joseph Smith's own words? Did he say something about true and false prophets and how one could 'prove' which one someone was. If so, what did JS say is the way to 'know' a false prophet from a true one? Here are Joseph Smith's own words.

"And by his contradicting a former revelation" (581)
And,
"When, therefore, ANY man, NO MATTER WHO OR HOW HIGH HIS STANDING MAY BE, UTTERS OR PUBLISHES ANYTHING WHICH AFTERWARDS PROVES TO BE UNTRUE, HE IS A FALSE PROPHET! (HoC 1:373, ft. nt.)

Some prophecies I believe JS was wrong on-
Kinderhook Plates
BoM being 'fullness of everlasting gospel' -most of LDS church's main doctrines aren't in the 'fullness' BoM
He did more than Jesus
"I shall triumph over all my enemies, for the Lord God hath spoken it." (D&C 127:2)- Surely, it wasn't his family, friends or fellow church members who killed him. It was his enemies less than 2 years after stating this
Temple in Jackson, Mo- wasn't built and LDS don't even own the land
Going back to Jackson within 100 years- it passed and the LDS did not return- plus, the land is not owned by the LDS church
America to be destroyed (twice)
The next generation (after the one hearing him in 1832) will see Jesus' return
Oliver Granger
David Patten
The 12 in the celestial kingdom (D&C 137/HoC 2:380/81)
The Stars fall
Polygamy
Jesus created ALL things/Jesus was a man with a dad who had a dad, ad infinitum in eternity. This is an impossible contradiction in terminology- if one is true the other cannot be.
D&C 71
Inspired Bible
Well, that is a short list of JS 'many' failures as a prophet. From my POV he could not be a prophet of God's.
 

Sonny

Active Member
That is the problem, your "opinion" just just does not line up with the truth or the facts.
You made numerous claims concerning Mormon Doctrine that you were repeatedly shown to b e just pl,ain flat out wrong.
Yet you persisted in repeating the same wrong claims...

What makes you think you are the one who gets to decide what is and what is not doctrine for Mormons?


BTW
I am STILL waiting for you to produce the "One True Christian Way"...
The Holy Bible.
 

Sonny

Active Member
That is the problem, your "opinion" just just does not line up with the truth or the facts.]/quote]
What facts are you speaking of? JS own words that he is a prophet, perhaps? Not enough evidence.

You made numerous claims concerning Mormon Doctrine that you were repeatedly shown to b e just pl,ain flat out wrong.
Yet you persisted in repeating the same wrong claims...]/quote]
Actually, no one proved they weren't, they just said they weren't true. That is insane for others to accept. Where is the poof?

What makes you think you are the one who gets to decide what is and what is not doctrine for Mormons?
I have said this from the start, I am not telling anyone what I believe your doctrines are. I am repeating what LDS leaders taught was the LDS church's doctrines. Then, unlike others here, I produce proof from LDS sources and SW. Since no one at the time they were taught as doctrines/SW said they weren't then they were. Some here want to make excuses by adding comments made, in some cases, 100 years after those things were taught. That, too, is insane and ridiculous, to me. The Bible has never had changes made to it since it was originally accepted and that was nearly 2,000 years ago. But LDS doctrines were changed within, some, months after giving and many within a few years. What kind of 'all-knowing' God is that? Any god that has to change is not God. Most people on this planet, religious or not, would say that. The word (title) God implies He knows everything about everything before there was anything, just as JS/LDS church taught/teaches. Yet, the LDS then turn around, imo, and change almost everything their god taught them. That is definitely not the Christian God.
so, try to remember that I am not telling anyone anything. I am only repeating what they said about themselves. Hope that clears some things up for you and others thinking as you do.
 
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