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Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And that evidence is not applicable when applied to consciousnesses rather than just meat?
That's the wrong dichotomy. We can't say (IMO) that fine-tuning is evidence for a "Fine-Tuner" who intended a universe that would not only support but inevitably lead to conscious living systems. However, we can say that there is evidence for "design" such that the cosmos seems to be fine-tuned for more than "just meat" in the sense of "just inanimate systems" or "inanimate conglomerations of particles" .
 

bishblaize

Member
That's the wrong dichotomy. We can't say (IMO) that fine-tuning is evidence for a "Fine-Tuner" who intended a universe that would not only support but inevitably lead to conscious living systems. However, we can say that there is evidence for "design" such that the cosmos seems to be fine-tuned for more than "just meat" in the sense of "just inanimate systems" or "inanimate conglomerations of particles" .

Any evidence that the universe is fine-tuned for life is the same evidence that it is fine-tuned for consciousness. Hence my comment. It would be inconsistent to 'grant' one and then claim there is no evidence for the other.

Edit: unless I suppose one thought consciousness and life were totally separate things.
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
Hell no, It's like the great struggle for life and survival in this piece.

Our Sun, Sol, will one day annihilate the Earth in a cataclysmic coronal mass ejection as it expands into a Red Giant and then become a White Dwarf, which will not sustain further life in this solar system, it will not generate enough heat for life to recover.

It say it could happen any second but it's estimated that Sol as a Yellow Dwarf will burn it's helium resources in an estimated 4,500,000 years.

So we've got time, and the Earth is more likely to have already been destroyed by then by celestial intervention.

At the rate astronomers discover meteors and comets it would seem Earth is on borrowed time. This is just from a few days ago, you're guess is as good as mine on how massive that asteroid was.

But still, it's one massive struggle for survival in the cosmos. After super nova's, coronal mass ejections, meteor showers and space pirates, there's black holes.

With all that star business said the astronomers and astro-physicists could be totally wrong about stars.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
We both know that these discussions are typically geared to argue in favor of ID. Which is fine, honestly. But, let's not pretend on a religious forum, in the religious debate subforum...that we're merely discussing the parameters of physics. ;)

It seems like this sort of thing happens to me a lot here. People presume, I guess because of the context, and because my tag says "religion: Christian" that if I'm discussing a topic I'm obviously arguing in some apologetic or polemical way, even when I disavow doing so explicitly. I have to be honest, I find it moderately disconcerting.

Maybe it's pedantic to distinguish between "fine tuning" (the physics) and the "argument from fine tuning" (an argument that takes fine tuning as a premise and asserts that it leads to the conclusion that a designer exists) but I think the distinction is meaningful and necessary, and since both topics are interesting in their own right, I'd hate to see people ignore or be suspicious of an interesting cosmological topic just because it's also the subject of a religious controversy. Besides that, I just pointed it out because the distinction is necessary to understanding the thread and what Legion's interest in it is, as far as I can tell.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Because we require stars that enabled the formation of planets:
"If the electromagnetic force were to be even slightly stronger relative to the other fundamental forces, all stars would be red dwarfs, and planets would not form. Or if it were a little weaker, all stars would be very hot, and thus short-lived."
McMullin, E. (2008). Tuning fine-tuning. Fitness of the Cosmos for Life: Biochemistry and Fine-Tuning (Cambridge Astrobiology). Cambridge University Press.
How would that prevent planets from forming?
Eh...sort of. Certainly they are considered good candidates for habitable zones, but that's more because of the fact that they are so prevalent and life could exist on orbiting planets. Whether or not life, and in particular complex life (extremophiles can live just about everywhere), is another matter. While I know of at least some researchers who argue Red Dwarfs can support life, and although I can't claim to keep up on the literature in astrobiology and related fields as much as I do most of the others I follow, it seems like the majority look at these stars in terms of HZ's because of orbiting planets.
They are also good candidates because of their very long lifespans.
It's somewhat of a moot point, as the gravitational constant, precise though it be, is both related to and dwarfed by the cosmological constant.
What does that have to do with the star and planet formation?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How would that prevent planets from forming?

The simplified version is in the source I provided earlier. However, I don't like not providing answers to questions that are meaningful. The problem is that the answer depends upon how much you know about stellar equations of state and astrophysics in general. Are you fairly familiar with these topics such that I can refer to technical concepts, notions, research. etc., and you will be able to glean from these the answer to your question? Or are you like the vast majority of people (from genius to lawyers) who are not able to evaluate such statements as they require a great deal of background knowledge?

They are also good candidates because of their very long lifespans.

They have comparatively short lifespans

What does that have to do with the star and planet formation?
The gravitational constant is incredibly precise, but is far, far, far, less precise than the cosmological constant. Arbitrary deviance from the value of the latter constant means no universe. No universe means no stars, planets, etc.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
That's actually part of the FTA, albeit mostly indirectly. The constants that permit life required the universe to unfold in an incredibly specified way to produce just the right number and kind of elements (which are formed via stellar dynamics, and thus require stars, which require precise values of the nuclear and gravitational forces, among others), such that a planet like Earth could exist. Also, from many a theistic perspective, God only wanted life here, and wanted us here. So noting that the universe in general doesn't seem particularly life-friendly is for such believers additional evidence.
Why do you think that God only wanted life here and to leave the rest of the COSMOS baron? I don't think this is the case, as I am a believer in extraterrestrial life of some kind, but you seem confident that you know this about God's wishes. What is your evidence to support this view?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Well even Susskind and Shermer admit that it strains credulity to think such a thing would happen by chance. Plus it depends on the multiverse idea being true which has not even been established.
And, scientists are in agreement that, currently, there is no plausible way of substantiating the multiverse theory. So, it cannot reach the point of even being a "scientific theory," as it cannot be observed, tested, and shown to be accurate.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do you think that God only wanted life here and to leave the rest of the COSMOS baron?
1) I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by "the rest of the COSMOS baron"
2) I don't believe in any god, so I can't possibly speculate as to the motives of an entity I don't believe exists.

I don't think this is the case, as I am a believer in extraterrestrial life of some kind
I find it fascinating that individuals believe as you do with no evidence whatsoever and granted probability theory which ensures that the chances of this are arbitrarily close to 0.

What is your evidence to support this view?
Physics.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And, scientists are in agreement that, currently, there is no plausible way of substantiating the multiverse theory. So, it cannot reach the point of even being a "scientific theory," as it cannot be observed, tested, and shown to be accurate.
It is a scientific theory. It is blatantly, obviously, and clearly so. A vast amount of physics literature supports this or doesn't but accepts it as a scientific theory. To argue otherwise is to ignore entire scientific fields.
 

bishblaize

Member
A tiny minority of living systems are conscious. So this isn't remotely accurate.

100% of consciousnesses are living systems. It is a prerequisite. Even if the Universe was not fine tuned for consciousnesses (whatever that would mean), all consciousnesses require the fine-tuning that accounts for life in order to exist in the first place. So the evidence in support of life in general also accounts for 100% of consciousnesses.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If you change the constant Λ by .000,000,00,0000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,001, there'd be no universe.

You seem to assume that these constants can take different values. Presumably, because of a conscious agency.

But if that is the case, they can vary. Assuming an agency as only possible driver or chooser of this variation would be circular reasoning.

So if they can vary, then they could, hypothetically, vary until they match and you have a Big Bang, or at least an interesting one. A sort of test and trial or resonance, so to speak. No teleology needed.

Ciao

- viole
 
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lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
The language gets a little confusing. The values in these equations which we're referring to were conceived of as "parameters", basically they are terms in the math that represent parts of the theory that need to be adjusted to match empirical observation, rather than terms whose values are dictated by the theory or by other terms. In that sense, they are variable, and hence parameters.

We call them "constants" because the value set by empirical observation is a single value. They are constant in the actual universe. But if you think of the mathematical model as a model that describes an entire class of metaphysically possible universes, then each hypothetical universe is described by a particular value (or set of values for different parameters in different models; i'm oversimplifying) of the parameter, which would be "constant" in that hypothetical universe, but which is variable from the standpoint of the model.

Edit: obviously everything in a mathematical model of physics is in some way set by observation, but it's like the difference in Newton's law of gravitation:

0f36df929ac9d711a8ba8c5658c3bfee.png


between G, a parameter in the sense we're talking about, and the main term which is the product of two masses divided by the square of the distance between them. m1m2/r^2 is the real "meat" of the model, G is this little fudge factor dictated by observation that sort of comes after the main insight into the force. All these fine tuning constants are sort of like G.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The language gets a little confusing. The values in these equations which we're referring to were conceived of as "parameters", basically they are terms in the math that represent parts of the theory that need to be adjusted to match empirical observation, rather than terms whose values are dictated by the theory or by other terms. In that sense, they are variable, and hence parameters.

We call them "constants" because the value set by empirical observation is a single value. They are constant in the actual universe. But if you think of the mathematical model as a model that describes an entire class of metaphysically possible universes, then each hypothetical universe is described by a particular value (or set of values for different parameters in different models; i'm oversimplifying) of the parameter, which would be "constant" in that hypothetical universe, but which is variable from the standpoint of the model.

Edit: obviously everything in a mathematical model of physics is in some way set by observation, but it's like the difference in Newton's law of gravitation:

0f36df929ac9d711a8ba8c5658c3bfee.png


between G, a parameter in the sense we're talking about, and the main term which is the product of two masses divided by the square of the distance between them. m1m2/r^2 is the real "meat" of the model, G is this little fudge factor dictated by observation that sort of comes after the main insight into the force. All these fine tuning constants are sort of like G.

I would say that if those constants can pick different values, so that they are merely nomologically constants, than this would be an argument against fine tuning, not for fine tuning.

Ciao

- viole
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You seem to assume that these constants can take different values.
I do tend to assume that, unless there is significant evidence to the contrary, the vast majority the thousands of physicists whose fields are relevant here aren't just assuming without cause. I can add to that my familiarity with physics and so forth, but as you have no way of evaluating my expertise (nor should you either need nor have to) this is irrelevant. It is sufficient to point to what we can all acknowledge are the experts here.


Presumably, because of a conscious agency.
Absolutely irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. I'm not sure how many other ways I can express this.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
100% of consciousnesses are living systems.
Completely wrong. Laughably wrong, I would way, but you are not familiar with this topic and so what appears to be so insanely ludicrous if it isn't a joke might appear to be reasonable. Hence a reason for this thread: the quoted portion of your post is completely wrong.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I do tend to assume that, unless there is significant evidence to the contrary, the vast majority the thousands of physicists whose fields are relevant here aren't just assuming without cause. I can add to that my familiarity with physics and so forth, but as you have no way of evaluating my expertise (nor should you either need nor have to) this is irrelevant. It is sufficient to point to what we can all acknowledge are the experts here.

So, they assume that they could have been different. Right?

Absolutely irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. I'm not sure how many other ways I can express this.

Ok. But then I am not sure what the argument is about. That the universe is fine tuned? You said that if it wasn't, there would be no universe. Ergo, a universe is tautologically fine tuned.

Ciao

- viole
 

bishblaize

Member
Completely wrong. Laughably wrong, I would way, but you are not familiar with this topic and so what appears to be so insanely ludicrous if it isn't a joke might appear to be reasonable. Hence a reason for this thread: the quoted portion of your post is completely wrong.

Do enlighten me.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would say that if those constants can pick different values
As everything here revolves around precision, let us be precise. The constants aren't agents; they can't "pick" anything. It is the fact that the constants for life require astronomically specific values for life that can't ve explained via the standard methods that is of interest, not the capacity to "pick different values."
 
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