Sapiens
Polymathematician
If you wish to pick out some exemplar(s) who has made a significant contribution, please do, otherwise that was just another logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority.
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Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?
- Thread starter LegionOnomaMoi
- Start date
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
It's depends what you mean by "nature of reality". I think eastern traditions and western science are carrying out different activities, one explores how we experience the world, the other explores how the world works.
outhouse
Atheistically
That seems quite Ridiculous.
Define it how you will, all these words im factually writing right now are my own.
Yes, it is ridiculous. But it is a valid and direct inference derived from your unthinking assertion that consciousness is a sole product of interactions in brain. This means that your awareness and intelligence are products of the deterministic processes in brain and whatever you say is determined by those interactions.
So, what free enquiry you can indulge in? Your understanding is pre-determined by brain chemicals over which you have no control.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I think your conclusion is oversimplified. I cannot speak for everyone, but no, I don't believe in absolute free will. Absolute free will would be horrifying. To do so would be admit that parenting and social norms don't matter, or help shape us. It would be admitting that bad habits and psychological counseling is futile, because we can just decide to be happy, independent of our social conditions. We can be whipped slaves, living our material lives
In willing bondage to any would-be dictator, happily accepting any subjection or degradation our masters chose to inflict upon is, because it's only the material world, and that's not real or important.
I could even claim that any pure idealist, or even dualist, who believes in absolute free will, could choose to be blissful all the time, and sit in the lotus position until they die, watching their bodies dehydrate with bemusement.
But I wouldn't make that claim, because that would be a straw man that doesn't reflect the complexity of your views, or the views of any idealist/dualist. I'd appreciate the same consideration.
Hi.
Where did I say anything about absolute free will? That is a separate discussion, if you wish. I am not a dualist either. Further, I did not find you pointing out the 'oversimplification' in my argument too.
If consciousness is a deterministic product of interaction of inert chemicals then there is no way that the truth value of a proposition can be determined objectively.
When one ascribes one's intelligence to blind chemical reactions in brain, one cannot at the same time claim to know better than others or claim to have better objective knowedge than others.
Where did I say anything about absolute free will? That is a separate discussion, if you wish. I am not a dualist either. Further, I did not find you pointing out the 'oversimplification' in my argument too.
If consciousness is a deterministic product of interaction of inert chemicals then there is no way that the truth value of a proposition can be determined objectively.
When one ascribes one's intelligence to blind chemical reactions in brain, one cannot at the same time claim to know better than others or claim to have better objective knowedge than others.
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Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I know. I was drawing outlandish conclusions on purpose. It's a cheap ploy, I will admit that.
I think you can know truth values independently, but not that many. Most of it is culturally mediated conjecture.
There are physical interactions with the world that can be described logically, and independently repeated.
If we agree on a purely logical system to describe it, then those few things are known. That logical system is mathematics, and the descriptions that it can provide, tell us about he objective reality around us they we can share.
Our ability to make reliable predictions about this phenomena is what makes
me a materialist and a naturalist.
Some believe that the sum total of every experiential phenomena can be described mathematically, but we do not yet have the data or the technology yet to do so. I am among those who believe it can all be mathematically described, but not along those that suggest it can all be mathematically predicted.
In other words, we can eventually describe the effects of free will, but not make predictions, as free will produces new constants that change the outcomes.
Does cultural mediation (or whatever) change the crux of the matter? Deterministically evolved consciousness (if it is so evolved) cannot be a tool for free enquiry, even after cultural mediation. OTOH, the 'automaton' effect will be more widespread.
(Further, actually there cannot be any real objective third party (independent) proof for any observation. An observer observes an object and the same observer also observes the third party validator of the object. It all happens in single consciousness. Where is real objective third party independent validation?)
(Further, actually there cannot be any real objective third party (independent) proof for any observation. An observer observes an object and the same observer also observes the third party validator of the object. It all happens in single consciousness. Where is real objective third party independent validation?)
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Never used the word deterministic. Our will is not determined, and I never suggested it was.
If there can be no objective third party, how can you trust a religious text?
The point was that consciousness/intelligence arisen from chemical interactions is deterministic.
I believe that the teaching of religious texts become useful only on internalising in one's consciousness through experience, through enquiry, contemplation, and meditation.
What? Is will different from awareness of self? Every aspect of mind: ego, will, intellect, memory, and senses, derive from consciousness only.
If consciousness is arisen deterministically these are also.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I believe it has arisen from chemical interactions, but it is not deterministic.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Ha ha. Chemical reactions determined your belief.
Ha. Ha. Mediation leads to unjustified taunting.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
atanu, your comments show you don't seem to have an understanding at all of the basic science of the brain and how it works, electrically and chemically, neurons, synapse's, neurotransmitters, different parts of the brain and functions. The brain itself and electrical oscillations of all those neurons talking together. Its actually amazing what modern neuroscience has learned about meditation and changes made to the brain, not from anything supernatural, just the way the whole brain works as well as neuroplasicity. Its also amazing about a lot of new neuroscience which has been lraned recently.
Again there is also the "second brain" and it has basically all the neurotransmitters the brain has in it, as well as 100 million nerve fibers as many as your spinal cord. The enteric nevous system, which is connect to CNS in the embryo stage development.
As well as the subconscious and its role in helping to protect you through evolution of the brain and being hard wired for the fight or flight response before you can consciously think about it so you don't become somethings dinner.
Neurologist V.S. 'Rama' Ramachandran discusses consciousness, qualia, free will, and eastern philosophies with Dr. Susan Blackmore.
Science Extra podcast: V.S. Ramachandran | Science | The Guardian
Again there is also the "second brain" and it has basically all the neurotransmitters the brain has in it, as well as 100 million nerve fibers as many as your spinal cord. The enteric nevous system, which is connect to CNS in the embryo stage development.
As well as the subconscious and its role in helping to protect you through evolution of the brain and being hard wired for the fight or flight response before you can consciously think about it so you don't become somethings dinner.
Neurologist V.S. 'Rama' Ramachandran discusses consciousness, qualia, free will, and eastern philosophies with Dr. Susan Blackmore.
Science Extra podcast: V.S. Ramachandran | Science | The Guardian
So what determines how the chemicals act? In your thinking, don't chemicals follow natural laws? So what else is there to determine their behavior?
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
What else would there need to be?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Of course the cosmos is fine tuned, how could it even be here if it wasn't, to think otherwise to me is being ignorant.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
It struck me that the very notion of "fine-tuning" presupposes somebody to do the tuning, so it's not establishing a level playing field from the outset.
That is the problem. As per you, activities in brain solely generated your consciousness, yet you claim that you somehow understand basic science better than me. How? Did brain reactions endow you with more understanding than it endowed me?
However, there is no point in me continuing this. Those who genuinely wish to freely ponder on this have done so. Those who are tied to dogma will not contemplate.