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Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I thought it fitting, and indeed maybe even helpful, to give some examples (not too many, nor too technical) of how fine-tuning is discussed in physics literature:

“Fine tuning appears in many areas of particle physics and cosmology, such as the standard model (SM) hierarchy problem and the cosmological constant problem. These problems imply that the Universe we live in is a very atypical scenario of the theories we use to describe it."
Athron, P., & Miller, D. J. (2007). New measure of fine tuning. Physical Review D, 76(7), 075010.

“In pre-big-bang inflation the end of the inflationary era is fixed, while its beginning is delayed by curvature. Too much curvature — of either sign — shortens the duration of the inflationary era to the point that the flatness and horizon problems are not solved. Thus, in the absence of a mechanism that would naturally cause a large region of space to materialize with tiny curvature, pre-big-bang inflation requires fine-tuning of initial conditions to solve these cosmological problems. This makes it less robust, and therefore less attractive as an implementation of the inflationary paradigm.”
Turner, M. S., & Weinberg, E. J. (1997). Pre-big-bang inflation requires fine-tuning. Physical Review D, 56(8), 4604.

“This Lorentz violation can be removed by explicit Lorentz-violating counterterms of dimension 4 in the Lagrangian that are fine tuned to give the observed low-energy Lorentz invariance. But such fine tuning is unacceptable in a fundamental theory.”
Collins, J., Perez, A., Sudarsky, D., Urrutia, L., & Vucetich, H. (2004). Lorentz invariance and quantum gravity: an additional fine-tuning problem?. Physical review letters, 93(19), 191301.


"The universe is said to be extraordinarily ‘fine-tuned’ for life. The inhabitability of our universe depends on the precise adjustment of what seem to be arbitrary, contingent features. Had the boundary conditions in the initial seconds of the big bang, and the values of various fundamental constants differed ever so slightly we would not have had anything like a stable universe in which life could evolve. In the space of possible outcomes of a big bang, only the tiniest region consists of universes capable of sustaining life. Most either last only a few seconds, or contain no stable elements or consist of nothing but black holes. This is a fairly standard story told by cosmologists—there is some controversy, concerning for instance the appropriate measure on the space of possible outcomes—but I will assume it is the right picture for the purpose of this discussion.2 The situation is thought to be something like the following. Nuclear bombs are connected to a high security combination lock, such that dozens of dials have to be adjusted with extreme precision to avoid detonating the bombs. Had any one dial differed ever so slightly from its actual position, the world would have been destroyed. In the absence of an explanation of why the dials were adjusted as they were ~suppose they had been spun at random! we would find it astonishing that we were here to consider the matter."
White, R. (2000). Fine‐Tuning and Multiple Universes. Nous, 34(2), 260-276.

“Fine-tuning does exist as a characteristic of our current physical and cosmological models. There are free parameters remaining theoretically unexplained. We can give them any value, and they remain compatible with the theory. To choose the right values, we make experiments or observations and fill them in in the model. Finding other ways to deduce those values is still a major problem in modern physics (Smolin 2006, 13). Furthermore, many of these parameters are sensitive to slight changes, which have important consequences for the evolution of the universe. It is in that sense that we can say that they are fine-tuned. The open question is not whether there is fine-tuning, but whether we will be able in the future to explain all these parameters from a more fundamental theory.”
Vidal, C. (2012). Fine-tuning, quantum mechanics and cosmological artificial selection. Foundations of Science, 17(1), 29-38.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"There are various ways of reacting to the apparent fine tuning of our six numbers. One hard-headed response is that we couldn't exist if these numbers weren't adjusted in the appropriate 'special' way: we manifestly are here, so there's nothing to be surprised about. Many scientists take this line, but it certainly leaves me unsatisfied. I'm impressed by a metaphor given by the Canadian philosopher John Leslie. Suppose you are facing a firing squad. Fifty marksmen take aim, but they all miss. If they hadn't all missed, you wouldn't have survived to ponder the matter. But you wouldn't just leave it at that - you'd still be baffled, and would seek some further reason for your good fortune."
M. J. Rees (1999). Just Six Numbers: The Deep Forces that Shape the Universe. Weidenfeld and Nicholson.


“An ensemble has been proposed as an explanation for the way that our universe appears to be anthropically fine-tuned for the existence of life and the appearance of consciousness. It is now clear that, if any of a number of parameters which characterize the observed universe – including both fundamental constants and initial conditions – were slightly different, no complexity of any sort would come into existence and hence no life would appear and no Darwinian evolution would take place. For example, Rees suggests there are just six numbers that must be fine-tuned in order that life can exist:

  1. N = ratio of electrical and gravitational forces between protons = 10^36;
  2. E = nuclear binding energy as a fraction of rest mass energy = 0.007;
  3. Ω = amount of matter in universe in units of critical density = 0.3;
  4. Λ = cosmological constant in units of critical density = 0.7;
  5. Q = amplitude of density fluctuations for cosmic structures = 10^5;
  6. D = number of spatial dimensions = 3.
A multiverse seems to be the only scientific way of explaining the precise adjustment of all these parameters simultaneously, so that complexity and life eventually emerged.”
Ellis, G. F. R. (2007). Multiverses: description, uniqueness and testing. In B. Carr (Ed.). Universe or Multiverse? (pp. 387-409). Cambridge University Press.

“The belief in God allowed western thinkers to understand why the “Laws of Nature” are as they are and not otherwise. Scientific activity ultimately consisted of discovering the “Laws of Nature” set up by God. However, now that many scientists no longer believe in God, there is a lack of explanation in the origin of the “Laws of Nature” (Davies 1998).
Why is our universe as it is, and not different? This question is a very much debated issue, at the intersection of cosmology, theology and philosophy. In modern terms, it is known as the fine-tuning problem in cosmology. It states that if a number of parameters, both constants in physics and initial parameters in big-bang models had been slightly different, no life or, more generally, no complexity would have emerged (Barrow and Tipler 1986; Davies 1982, 2008; Ellis 1993; Leslie 1989, 1998; Rees 2000; Hogan 2000; Barrow et al. 2008). The standard models of particle physics and cosmology require 31 free parameters to be specified (Tegmark et al. 2006). It is a main challenge of modern physics to build stronger theories able to reduce this number.”
Vidal, C. (2010). Computational and biological analogies for understanding fine-tuned parameters in physics. Foundations of Science, 15(4), 375-393.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Scientific activity ultimately consisted of discovering the “Laws of Nature” set up by God.

Only by biased theist practicing pseudoscience

“The belief in God allowed western thinkers to understand why the “Laws of Nature” are as they are and not otherwise.

False, it is also pseudoscience

"There are various ways of reacting to the apparent fine tuning of our six numbers.

There is no such thing as fine tuning.


The universe is actually apposed to life. It is not agreeable to life. We live in an environment that is a freak of nature, and this environment is so rare, it shows the universe is NOT fine tuned for life.

Were just lucky to be on a planet that is in the right spot at the right time which even on this planet is a short geological window.


Our planet in all its history is only for a brief spec of geologic time, able to support life by luck alone.


ANY attributes to ancient mythological characters are based on fantasy, ignorance, and wishful thinking. Known pseudoscience.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
"The universe is said to be extraordinarily ‘fine-tuned’ for life.

Factually an error and ignorant.

Most of the universe is devoid of life.

Most people do not have a clue of how much empty space actually exist in our own solar system as an example. And the actual part that does contain life in this RARE solar system represents about 1/million trillion'th of the space. The rest is all deadly to all conscious life. [my number of 1/M-T is a gift and a low estimate but it gives a prime example of size.]


Based on our factual numbers, not made up imaginative claims, our own life bearing solar system is factually not fine tuned for life.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Here is the error involved in the pseudoscience.


Theistic scientist, are using the conclusion "conscious life" to ignorantly dictate the equation they don't have any knowledge of.

Their sole premise is that "luck" equals a mythological claim from ancient men's lack of understanding of the natural world.

NO ONE, can rule out luck with any credibility using math that requires a concept that doesn't exist scientifically.


That is why this claim of fine tuned, lies factually in the term of pseudoscience.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Only by biased theist practicing pseudoscience
"consisted", not consists. Past tense. It did consist of this, it doesn't anymore, and the author didn't claim it to be. Try reading more carefully.

False, it is also pseudoscience
True, and also history. When you can cite the thousands of works on the emergence of science such that you can render a remotely informed view here other than obstinate ignorance as to the historical emergence of the sciences, do so. Until then, simply claiming that peer-reviewed mainstream academic literature is "pseudoscience" because you don't have the requisite background, education, or experience to evaluate it is less useful or meaningful than real pseudoscience.

There is no such thing as fine tuning.
Unless one cares about mainstream physics. You've reverted: you counter mainstream physics literature with claims you can't substantiate and without anything remotely resembling expertise.

The universe is actually apposed to life.
This is so incredibly wrong it is actually astronomically so from a statistical or probabilistic perspective. Try again (and try using some real scientific arguments and evidence rather than asserting baseless claims that rest upon an authority you utterly lack).

We live in an environment that is a freak of nature, and this environment is so rare, it shows the universe is NOT fine tuned for life.
This only shows that the conditions for life are highly improbable given even ideal conditions. When you can coherently formulate a more biophilic universe, feel free.
Factually an error and ignorant.
It's basically universally accepted among physicists. Your ignorance notwithstanding, you might attempt to address mainstream scientific literature with more then empty rhetoric and reliance on your own authority (which is non-existent).

Most of the universe is devoid of life.
Utterly irrelevant, excepting that it makes your would-be "argument" that much more bereft of value. Try addressing the literature before spouting this nonsense. It's easier to address arguments when you actually understand what they are.
Here is the error involved in the pseudoscience.
The error is in the numerous physicists who prefer to posit various multiverse theories without basis because it seems to them to remove the need for a designer. For you, the error is not having a clue. You counter mainstream physics with empty and factually incorrect assertions that in most cases reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the issues here.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It's basically universally accepted among physicists. Your ignorance notwithstanding, you might attempt to address mainstream scientific literature with more then empty rhetoric and reliance on your own authority (which is non-existent).

It s hard to believe you have sunk into pseudoscience, and rhetorical attacks.


The validity of fine tuning examples is sometimes questioned on the grounds that such reasoning is subjective anthropomorphism applied to natural physical constants. Critics also suggest that the fine-tuned Universe assertion and the anthropic principle are essentially tautologies.[28]

The Universe is not fine-tuned to life; life is fine-tuned to the Universe."[30]

Stephen Hawking, along with Thomas Hertog of CERN, proposed that the Universe's initial conditions consisted of a superposition of many possible initial conditions, only a small fraction of which contributed to the conditions we see today. According to their theory, it is inevitable that we find our Universe's "fine-tuned" physical constants, as the current Universe "selects" only those past histories that led to the present conditions. In this way, top-down cosmology provides an anthropic explanation for why we find ourselves in a universe that allows matter and life, without invoking the existence of the Multiverse.[41]
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You counter mainstream physics with empty and factually incorrect assertions

It’s a bit of a straw man argument, as well, and it also smells of the “god of the gaps” fallacy.


Just because an “unexplained” constant exists in physics doesn’t mean that it’s free to be adjusted
 

outhouse

Atheistically
In addition, critics argue that humans are adapted to the Universe through the process of evolution, rather than the Universe being adapted to humans (see puddle thinking, below). They also see it as an example of the logical flaw of hubris or anthropocentrism in its assertion that humans are the purpose of the Universe.[31]


Please don't ever claim I don't have academia behind my claims. It would not be honest.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It’s a bit of a straw man argument, as well, and it also smells of the “god of the gaps” fallacy.
You don't have a clue what it "smells of". When so infamous and atheist as mother-****ing god**** Richard Dawkins thinks your wrong here, you can be pretty sure that your awareness of the issues involved is basically nil.

“The fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life has received much attention in recent times…
FT can be understood as a counterfactual claim, that is, a claim about what would have been. Such claims are not uncommon in everyday life. For example, we can formulate the claim that Roger Federer would almost certainly defeat me in a game of tennis as: ‘in the set of possible games of tennis between myself and Roger Federer, the set in which I win is extremely small’. This claim is undoubtedly true, even though none of the infinitely-many possible games has been played….
We will sharpen the presentation of cases of fine-tuning by responding to the claims of Victor Stenger...Let’s be clear on the task that Stenger has set for himself. There are a great many scientists, of varying religious persuasions, who accept that the universe is fine-tuned for life, e.g. Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Dawkins, Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison, Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose, Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin, Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin, Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek. They differ, of course, on what conclusion we should draw from this fact. Stenger, on the other hand, claims that the universe is not fine-tuned.”
Barnes, L. A. (2012). The fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life. Publications of the Astronomical Society of Australia, 29(4), 529-564.
This list isn't anywhere near exhaustive, as it is meant to represent the most well-known scientist to people like you who aren't scientists or experts in any field whatsoever. I've bolded those who are clearly and obviously opposed to the idea that god exists or that the universe is designed. They still accept the basic fact of fine-tuning. Perhaps because they have scientific minds:

“Why are the laws and constants of nature as well as the boundary conditions as they are? And why do they appear to be special—even fine-tuned for life? If they would be only slightly different, complex information-processing structures—and, hence, intelligent observers—probably could not have developed (e.g. Leslie 1989; Vaas 2004a; Carr 2007; Tegmark 2011).”
Vaas, R. (2012). Cosmological Artificial Selection: Creation out of something?. Foundations of Science, 17(1), 25-28.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please don't ever claim I don't have academia behind my claims. It would not be honest.
You conflated my posts and my views with pseudoscience and intellectual bankruptcy. You'll have to forgive my taking umbrage with such characterizations, especially given the importance I give to intellectual honesty and integrity. You've equated my posts (and/or their content) with pseudoscience. I don't appreciate that. It's basically the worst insult you could possibly make.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Sure. But this is always true. Granted, sometimes it is more true than others, but actual probability applications are a lot messier than textbook examples because we can't perfectly replicate experiment once nor can we imperfectly replicate one infinitely many times, because no coin is actually fair, because all dice are loaded and subject to atmospheric conditions among others, and we are usually dealing with estimations of distributions obtained from assumptions, samples, and (too often) a misunderstanding of the CLT and (weak and strong) laws of large numbers.

In addition to interpretations of probability that define probability in terms of optimal methods for rationally changing beliefs, we have statistical analyses and probability methods designed specifically to calculate probability when we're really in the dark. Physics rests on certain assumptions (although just about all of these have either been heavily criticized or abandoned in the last few decades or more). It is oft forgotten that Hoyle coined the term "big bang" out of derision, because it was too akin to the Genesis creation myth. Likewise, thanks partly to the influence of a book cited by many more popular books and probably not read by most who cite it (The Anthropic Cosmological Principle), it is often forgotten that the anthropic principle is not controversial because of religious connotations, but because adopting it means abandoning the very foundations of physics: the quest for foundational principles whence all phenomena could be explained or at least be found consistent with.

Once the big bang theory was widely accepted, it became extremely important to understand its nature as the theory entails there was a time after the "bang" during which basically all of physics and virtually all that is physical didn't exist, yet somehow these conditions resulted in the universe we find ourselves in. When there exists no reason to suspect that this process should occur in particular ways, and no reason that this process couldn't have resulted in vastly different fundamental forces or constants and so forth, then we aren't exactly calculating in the dark. If we have no reason to suspect a particular set of conditions, values for parameters, strength of forces, etc., then Bayesian analysis (among other approaches to this sort of issue) dictates we assume that the possible distribution or the configuration space is both infinite and unbiased towards a particular configuration. We also should not be able to use the fact that we exist to derive theory or as a replacement for first principles/fundamentals. In short, while we absolutely must be able to say that the conditions allowed for the our existence, our existence doesn't allow us to weigh as more probable a particular set of conditions. Since there is no other reason to weigh as more probable the conditions that allow for our existence and the universe we find ourselves in, we would like different conditions to allow for the same or at least similar results. Instead, we find that for no good reason the conditions required for something remotely like our universe are interrelated, highly "tuned", and vastly improbable given the configuration space.



This is why I used the lottery example. Conditionals are tricky enough; conditional probability more so (and counterfactual conditional probability even more so). We certainly don't ask what the probability of winning the lottery is given that we won the lottery. But we might ask what the probability of winning the lottery would have been if we hadn't or what it was before we did.

Another example is (many types of) climate models. We have simulations of temperatures that we use to build a model (along with what we know about the climate) such that the model will predict the records we already have. Of course, this in and of itself is pointless. We have the simulations of temperatures already, so why predict them? Because we then run the model into the future. Similarly, in seeking to understand the physical system that is the whole universe (and therefore physics), we would wish to be able to construct a model based on known "laws" and our "record" such that we can show how physics caused the universe to emerge as it did. We can't. However, we can if we assume our existence, but this again means abandoning the foundations of physics as the scientific enterprise it has been for centuries.


We can't. But we shouldn't need to (that's the problem). Either there should be a reason why the conditions were not astronomically improbable because e.g., there are infinitely many universes with different laws and thus one was bound to have these conditions or because there is something about the big bang that necessitated the values for the infamous parameters or really anything other than that we simply chalk up to chance the fact that an extremely tiny window allowed for our universe and give up on understanding the nature of the emergence of the universe.

Yes, this last bit, (The idea that the odds needn't be improbable at all). So, instead of arguing for fine tuning, we could say that we do not know why the forces are such that the universe appears fine tuned. This is very different than saying the universe was likely fine tuned, or is fine tuned. Now pardon the foray into sci-fi but: if, for example, some theory came out wherein observation by life collapsed the wave function forcing the constants that we now observe to be the constants, than this, though begging the question, would limit the probability of any constant to that which could sustain life. Thus, any possible universe would be one that appeared fine tuned. Now I suppose one could ask about the probability of a wave function collapsing once observed, but I imagine an answer limiting the probablilty of that could be formed as well.

So, my point is sure we can use catchy phrases like "fine tuned" but what do such phrases mean when they are only comparisons to other imagined universes when we do not know all the constraints that should be employed on imagining a universe. While I can understand the concept of imagining conditions for humans on planets, the idea of imagining that strong or weak force could be any other variable seems pertinent for understanding why strong and weak force are that which they are, not for any broad statement regarding the fine tuning of our universe.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You don't have a clue what it "smells of". When so infamous and atheist as mother-****ing god**** Richard Dawkins thinks your wrong here, you can be pretty sure that your awareness of the issues involved is basically nil.

“The fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life has received much attention in recent times…
FT can be understood as a counterfactual claim, that is, a claim about what would have been. Such claims are not uncommon in everyday life. For example, we can formulate the claim that Roger Federer would almost certainly defeat me in a game of tennis as: ‘in the set of possible games of tennis between myself and Roger Federer, the set in which I win is extremely small’. This claim is undoubtedly true, even though none of the infinitely-many possible games has been played….
We will sharpen the presentation of cases of fine-tuning by responding to the claims of Victor Stenger...Let’s be clear on the task that Stenger has set for himself. There are a great many scientists, of varying religious persuasions, who accept that the universe is fine-tuned for life, e.g. Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Dawkins, Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison, Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose, Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin, Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin, Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek. They differ, of course, on what conclusion we should draw from this fact. Stenger, on the other hand, claims that the universe is not fine-tuned.”
Barnes, L. A. (2012). The fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life. Publications of the Astronomical Society of Australia, 29(4), 529-564.
This list isn't anywhere near exhaustive, as it is meant to represent the most well-known scientist to people like you who aren't scientists or experts in any field whatsoever. I've bolded those who are clearly and obviously opposed to the idea that god exists or that the universe is designed. They still accept the basic fact of fine-tuning. Perhaps because they have scientific minds:

“Why are the laws and constants of nature as well as the boundary conditions as they are? And why do they appear to be special—even fine-tuned for life? If they would be only slightly different, complex information-processing structures—and, hence, intelligent observers—probably could not have developed (e.g. Leslie 1989; Vaas 2004a; Carr 2007; Tegmark 2011).”
Vaas, R. (2012). Cosmological Artificial Selection: Creation out of something?. Foundations of Science, 17(1), 25-28.


Not a word refutes this.

The Universe is not fine-tuned to life; life is fine-tuned to the Universe."[30]
 

outhouse

Atheistically
When so infamous and atheist as mother-****ing god**** Richard Dawkins thinks your wrong here,

Does he now?

Or are you taking him out of context?


He states it is hard to counter because if anything in nature was different, we would not be here.

But it doesn't refute the fact life is fine-tuned to the Universe
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Atheists like Dawkins reject the argument that the statistical improbability of life developing on earth supports the notion of an intelligent designer who precisely fixed the settings of all the immense range of variables existing in the universe in such a way as to allow life to develop. Dawkins' argument is as follows:


  1. based on present scientific knowledge, it is a conservative estimate there are a billion billion planets in the universe


  2. hence, even if the spontaneous arising of the most basic form of life (eg. DNA) on a planet was so improbable as to occur in only one in a billion planets, life would arise spontaneously, without design, on one billion planets


  3. thus, a chemical model which can predict that life will arise spontaneously on one planet in a billion billion planets provides a satisfying explanation of the presence of life, given that we do have evidence of the existence of life on at least one planet (us!)


  4. the idea of a being (God) of such immense complexity, power and intelligence such that it can create universes is at least as statistically improbably as the chance of life developing simultaneously


  5. there is no explanation for the existence of such a being


  6. therefore, the argument that an ‘intelligent designer’ designed the universe should be rejected


  7. Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, 2006
 
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