• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The WAP is completely compatible with fine-tuning, and again nobody is really debating (well, physicists aren't) whether the universe is fine-tuned, including those who opt for alternatives because, like Susskind, they believe this removes the potential need to invoke a creator:
Here is the problem I have option #3 that Susskind talks about. The cosmological constant is a specific number but numbers are infinite. That means there are an infinite number of possible values for the constant (if I am understanding correctly) which also means there are an infinite number of possibilities that it would never randomly hit just the right value. So even if the number of possible universes is also infinite you would not necessarily ever have one that had just the right value.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Here is the problem I have option #3 that Susskind talks about. The cosmological constant is a specific number but numbers are infinite. That means there are an infinite number of possible values for the constant (if I am understanding correctly) which also means there are an infinite number of possibilities that it would never randomly hit just the right value. So even if the number of possible universes is also infinite you would not necessarily ever have one that had just the right value.
Does this matter? I mean, does the mere possibility that the right circumstances might never be met really indicate anything either way?
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Does this matter? I mean, does the mere possibility that the right circumstances might never be met really indicate anything either way?
Yes, I think it does matter. It means that you can't necessarily explain this fine tuning by mere chance alone.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Yes, I think it does matter. It means that you can't necessarily explain this fine tuning by mere chance alone.
That's not what this shows at all. It merely shows that there is a chance that it might not have happened on it's own, but that, in no way, means that it didn't. That is a huge jump.

I agree that the chances were not in our favor when it comes to habital environments, but that doesn't mean it is not possible for it to happen by chance.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Here is the problem I have option #3 that Susskind talks about. The cosmological constant is a specific number but numbers are infinite. That means there are an infinite number of possible values for the constant (if I am understanding correctly) which also means there are an infinite number of possibilities that it would never randomly hit just the right value. So even if the number of possible universes is also infinite you would not necessarily ever have one that had just the right value.

Typically the argument is formulated based on the idea that even small adjustments to the observed values would preclude life. That doesn't depend on evaluating probability with infinite possibilities.

edit: I think I misunderstood you, so nevermind :p
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
That's not what this shows at all. It merely shows that there is a chance that it might not have happened on it's own, but that, in no way, means that it didn't. That is a huge jump.

I agree that the chances were not in our favor when it comes to habital environments, but that doesn't mean it is not possible for it to happen by chance.
With an infinite number of values the chances of hitting just the right one is one in infinity. Those are not good odds.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
It's not that stars couldn't form but that there'd be no life because no stars required for it could.
Ah, that's better. Thanks for the clarification. Let's assume for a moment that changing the strength of gravity would create a Universe dominated by either red or blue stars. Why should that prevent life from forming? Red dwarf systems are currently considered good candidates for life. As for blue stars, their short lifespan may prevent something like humans from evolving, but not life itself. Actually, I'd even go so far as to venture that the light and heat from a star aren't even necessary for life: there are extremophilic microbes which live miles below the crust on Earth. An ice-covered ocean planet similar to a "Super Europa" might be able to host life in any kind of star system, with energy and warmth being derived via chemosynthesis and residual heat from the planet's initial formation. Similar ecosystems survive around black smokers on Earth.

All of this did make me come to a (somewhat off-topic) realization. Young Earth creationists often argue that the speed of light could have been greatly different in the past (in an attempt to explain why we can see stars and galaxies that are more than 10,000 light-years away). If those same YECs also hold to the fine-tuning argument, then they have boxed themselves in: if they believe that the speed of light could have been thousands of times higher in the past and yet things like stars, planets and living creatures could still exist under those conditions, then that would undermine their acceptance of the FTA. This is because changing the speed of light changes many different natural values as well (such as the charge on the electron, the strength of the electromagnetic force, the rate at which orbits decay, the size of atoms and the strength of atomic bonds, etc.). So admitting to the possibility of a great change in the speed of light would simultaneously weaken the FTA (for them, at least).
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
Greeetings,

l'm not sure if I've posted here before or not, but the topic drew me in, so may I remark that I believe the idea of 'fine-tuning' is an illusion. If evolution is a fact, and i believe it is, then there is only one possibility, i..e. the world is exactly the way it in fact evolved, the way it is. There are no other possibilities except what exists, i.e. what has evolved. I would also argue in a similar vein that 'free will' is not possible, as there exists in the world both a set of fixed, deterministic laws, as well as a purely random set of accidents. "There is no room on either side for any third alternative. Whatever actions we 'choose', they cannot make the slightest change in what might otherwise have been --because those rigid, natural laws already caused the states of mind that caused us to decide that way. And if that choice was in part made by chance -- it still leaves nothing for us to decide." -- thanks to Marvin Minsky
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Greeetings,

l'm not sure if I've posted here before or not, but the topic drew me in, so may I remark that I believe the idea of 'fine-tuning' is an illusion. If evolution is a fact, and i believe it is, then there is only one possibility, i..e. the world is exactly the way it in fact evolved, the way it is. There are no other possibilities except what exists, i.e. what has evolved.
The evolution of the cosmos is not the same as biological evolution. As far as can be told, the laws of nature have not changed since the Big Bang (although there is some evidence that there might be differences in the fine-structure constant depending on where you are in the Universe: the Australian dipole).
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As far as I’m concerned the FTA is just a reframing of a very old argument. Namely “The universe is so amazing it must have been created”. It brings no evidence to the table to support it. And it also drags poor probabilities into an argument in which they have no place.
That actually doesn't work for most religions or most arguments. For example, a common interpretation of Islam (at least during the late medieval and early modern period), or perhaps I should say of the Quran and ahadith, was that finding order in the cosmos placed limitations on God. This view exists also in the Old Testament, but by the time the Church had begun to climb back up to the academic/intellectual status of the Roman empire (in other words, by the time Western Christians were in a position to develop natural philosophy, the precursor to science), the Church quickly wedded itself to Aristotelian philosophy and thanks to the factors like the Protestant revolution quickly developed natural philosophy. In other words, we can't see how constraining cosmology was to the intellectual/academic development within Christianity because by the time Christians were at the point to develop arguments based upon the nature of the universe Scholasticism developed in the West while the East was already mostly conquered and continued to shrink (FYI- a common misconception is that part of the reason the Church adopted the view that the Earth was the center of the universe was because this was a good position, rather than the notion actually held: that this was the lowest position).

In the East, not only was such a view absent from most if not all traditions, the majority viewed the material world as mostly negative and the cosmos unchanging or cyclical.

The first developed "proofs" (arguments) for God, such as Anselm's, Descartes', etc., made no reference to cosmic design. The scholalistics followed Aristotle in reasoning about causality (his 4-fold division, out of which the final cause naturally was attributed to God), and the first real argument for design of the type you refer to isn't until Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. One can certainly quote-mind various texts and see words like order or how God's works are so magnificent because God is magnificent, but these are no more arguments than is Hamlet's description of the cosmos when first he meets up with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern (minus the ending- "and yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me").

Another difference is that fine-tuning isn't just an argument for a designer. It's a simple fact of physics, that physicists hold to be true whether they regard it as a problem to be explained, don't care, or believe it to be evidence of design. The question isn't whether our universe is fine-tuned, it's what this might entail, could entail, and cannot entail.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
With an infinite number of values the chances of hitting just the right one is one in infinity. Those are not good odds.
They are not good odds. Never said they were. But, it doesn't mean its impossible that was natural.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fine tuning makes sense only if you can answer the question: fine tuned for what?
Life. I probably should have made that clearer. The non-religious version of fine-tuning is similar to the weak anthropic principle (WAP), in that it looks at what is necessary for us to be here and finds surprisingly that tiny differences in the values of numerous constants would result in no life and even no universe. Because fewer constants give us no universe, but many more no life (i.e., a universe of hydrogen or something one in which atoms can't form), the fine-tuning refers to fine-tuning for life.

Second question: we have to put a lot of effort to tune things because, otherwise, they will not tune themselves for obvious thermodynamical reasons.
We don't "tune" any of them. They are determined experimentally. According to the standard model, there are ~20 or so such constants. These include, for example, the fundamental forces.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That part is easy, the argument is that it is fine tuned for life as we know it. I suppose the OP doesn't actually state that explicitly, although it's implied by the anthropic principle
Should have read down before responding to the post above. You beat me to it.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
They are not good odds. Never said they were. But, it doesn't mean its impossible that was natural.
Well even Susskind and Shermer admit that it strains credulity to think such a thing would happen by chance. Plus it depends on the multiverse idea being true which has not even been established.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't appear that you fully appreciate what is at issue here. Biological organisms (at least, at first blush) appear to have been designed.
This is an entirely different argument. Complex structures appear everywhere in nature, and we not only are unable to quantify the differences between biological complexity and complex non-living systems, but are also unable to quantify complexity (or rather, there are several different definitions and no agreement on which one is best other than that some are obviously inadequate for particular contexts).

The FTA can be approached in a few ways, but most of these are inadequate and poorly wrought. The one I have presented in skeletal form here has to do with a particular position on the nature of probability. An easier argument (but one I think open to more criticisms) is one presented in e.g., the clip I provided. Scientists, and in particular physicists working in particle physics, cosmology, theoretical physics, etc., have a tradition going back before science was science: reductionism. While not made explicit in natural philosophy, certainly by the time of the 19th century the goal was to explain reality in terms of the most fundamental and simplest parts, and the most fundamental and simplest forces. It seems that particle physics (among other things) has proved this to be impossible. However, physicists still prefer models that don't just predict but explain. In particular, with something like the big bang, we would like to know how it happened and the nature of the pre-big bang era (for which we have some educated guesses but are unlikely to ever get far, in my view) and still more the processes that led to the particular universe we find ourselves in. For some reasons, the nature of the big bang and the processes that occurred between it and the point at which all physics breaks down, as well as after, result in a universe which we would expect to permit life (given that we are here), but would expect that various changes (especially tiny ones) wouldn't make a difference. Instead, we find an incredible degree of necessary precision for many constants/parameters.

Therefore, the materialist is obligated to account for the apparent design.
Humans are wont to see design where none exists. It's just like our predisposition to infer causation without justification.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Also in addition to establishing with reasonable certainty that a multiverse exists one would have to understand the process(es) by which individual universes are formed in the first place. Maybe those processes allow for only a finite set of values for the constants. If that is so then the odds you would get a universe conducive to life would dramatically increase.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Humans are wont to see design where none exists. It's just like our predisposition to infer causation without justification.
But sometimes when we sense design it really exists. Sometimes when we infer causation our inference is correct.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems far more reasonable to assume that we ONLY exist because of the nature of our universe rather than the universe was "fine-tuned" so that we could survive. It seems clear from the fact that nearly 100% of the known universe cannot sustain life that the universe was not setup for our interest or that of life.
That's actually part of the FTA, albeit mostly indirectly. The constants that permit life required the universe to unfold in an incredibly specified way to produce just the right number and kind of elements (which are formed via stellar dynamics, and thus require stars, which require precise values of the nuclear and gravitational forces, among others), such that a planet like Earth could exist. Also, from many a theistic perspective, God only wanted life here, and wanted us here. So noting that the universe in general doesn't seem particularly life-friendly is for such believers additional evidence.
 
Top