Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

[Ben Dhyan]

Come on Ben? We can go back in time to Planck time and then the math itself breaks down due to QM. You still, I believe are confused on the BB theory and the add on to the theory the Singularity.

again its like abiogenesis and evolution, not the same.

We do know for a fact the universe was very hot and very dense in the past and is expanding. That is the actual BB theory. That is also what we have the pictures of from Cobe, Wmap and now Planck in the microwave spectrum in very fine detail, before any stars or galaxies existed at all. At the 370,000 after the Big Bang and the time of recombination.

But I understood that you said the math was there up to zero point, of course I understand the theory after zero point is covered by math. Ok, we'll let that go...

So we are still left with some miraculous zero point origination...yes?

And please spare me anymore post zer BB narrative, that is not what I'm asking about......just, presuming you don't think it was due to a supernatural cause, or a miracle, why did the zero point come into existence, and how?

 

[shawn001]

Thanks for that Shawn....I know this should be already understood be any educated person, so I hope all those who thought otherwise take note that science does not speak with any authority on matters beyond the realm of physical nature.

Science has in the past killed superstitions and what was thought to be supernatural with natural explanations though. Humans have an amazing imagination and I believe for the most part that is a very good thing.

But, I believe sometimes it can go overboard with individuals and collectively even.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Thanks for that Shawn....I know this should be already understood be any educated person, so I hope all those who thought otherwise take note that science does not speak with any authority on matters beyond the realm of physical nature.

So is there something in the cosmos beyond the realm of physical nature?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But, I believe sometimes it can go overboard with individuals and collectively even.

Indeed, and humans have a strong need to find meaning and comfort in an uncertain existence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Not necessarily, it could be explained without supernatural causes, in fact recently there was an explanation without breaking any of the natural laws of physics. Although again a QM and cosmological theory combined is needed.

We could all give up on the question though and just say "God did it" and move on, but that is not what a lot of humans are about.

What is this explanation within the laws of physics?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So is there something in the cosmos beyond the realm of physical nature?

Of course there is.....I am speaking from a religious perspective....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Of course there is.....I am speaking from a religious perspective....

Generally a religious perspective entails belief in something unproven, so when you say "of course there is", I assume you mean "I believe there is"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Science has in the past killed superstitions and what was thought to be supernatural with natural explanations though. Humans have an amazing imagination and I believe for the most part that is a very good thing.

But, I believe sometimes it can go overboard with individuals and collectively even.

I agree....but scientists too are afflicted with amazing imagination, and thus there is a scientific method that is supposed to be followed, but isn't in a lot of cases when money and politics get involved.......

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Generally a religious perspective entails belief in something unproven, so when you say "of course there is", I assume you mean "I believe there is"?

No I mean I know there is, but I also know that you can't know that I know there is,....and...because you, presuming you are ignorant of this extra-physical reality until now, can't know yet there is...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No I mean I know there is, but I also know that you can't know that I know there is,....and...because you, presuming you are ignorant of this extra-physical reality until now, can't know yet there is...

So how do you "know"? What have you observed that convinces you? And how do you avoid confirmation bias?

 

[shawn001]

But I understood that you said the math was there up to zero point, of course I understand the theory after zero point is covered by math. Ok, we'll let that go...

So we are still left with some miraculous zero point origination...yes?

And please spare me anymore post zer BB narrative, that is not what I'm asking about......just, presuming you don't think it was due to a supernatural cause, or a miracle, why did the zero point come into existence, and how?

Well you seem to imply there was no Big Bang and that we know happened.

"But I understood that you said the math was there up to zero point,"

No I specially said the math breaks down then due to QM.

I also mention they don't know exactly how yet. I want to make this very clear!!!!!

However

"Let’s start with the origin of the universe. There is plenty of good scientific evidence that our universe began about 14 billion years ago, in a Big Bang of enormously high density and temperature, long before planets, stars and even atoms existed. But what came before? Krauss in his book discusses the current thinking of physicists that our entire universe could have emerged from a jitter in the amorphous haze of the subatomic world called the quantum foam, in which energy and matter can materialize out of nothing. (On the level of single subatomic particles, physicists have verified in the lab that such creation from “nothing” can occur."

Both Hawking's and Krauss, but there are other ways as well that could explain it naturally. Then, they are human as well and have their own beliefs just like you do, except they know a lot more about it the actual physic's then you and I of course.

It is NOT a done deal of course But it does show a natural explanation that does not break the laws of physic's or invoke a supernatural cause. Just because we don't understand something yet or right now, doesn't mean we might not in the future. We have done a pretty good job of learning about it all over the last 200 years.

Now same question to you what cause the bang?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So how do you "know"? What have you observed that convinces you? And how do you avoid confirmation bias?

From experience I can say, it is impossible to convey to someone who has not had a transcendence of the normal conceptual mental state, a conceptual explanation that they can resonate with, with any degree of affinity...it's a waste of time for both parties....

 

[shawn001]

We represent the two major schools of thought; Materialism and Spiritualism. (there are no perfect terms so I don't want to go there)

Materialism: Matter is primary and consciousness is a product of matter
Spiritualism; Consciousness is primary and matter is a product of consciousness
.
This is all a divine drama of God/Brahman. Matter is the stage props for this drama. Our physical consciousness is a ray of the One consciousness animating a finite form.

Your bring your personal bias and beliefs in.

Again you can't show one thing that has consciousness without a nervous system. Name one!

"Our physical consciousness is a ray of the One consciousness animating a finite form."

A ray? finite form?

I can make things up as well. Pink unicorns generate a cosmic consciousness and all human spiritualism.

You can change your consciousness with drugs, with booze and a whole lot of other ways.

Your way out of your league in modern neuroscience and the brain as well. Even with evolution.

"Consciousness is primary and matter is a product of consciousness"

LOL

What do you have to back that up. What consciousness was there when the universe started and was roughly 7 trillion degree F.

You don't seem to understand matter, mass and energy either.

But seriously what science do you have that backs up

""Consciousness is primary and matter is a product of consciousness"

 

[shawn001]

Spiny, I think I can save you some time here and say "be one with the universe."

 

[shawn001]

I agree....but scientists too are afflicted with amazing imagination, and thus there is a scientific method that is supposed to be followed, but isn't in a lot of cases when money and politics get involved.......

Most of that gets weeded out with peer review and time and most scientists don't do that in general even though some do.

You could say that with religion, money and politics as well.

"Politicians and the religious both use the word "Truth" in the same way."
Mark Twain

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well you seem to imply there was no Big Bang and that we know happened.

"But I understood that you said the math was there up to zero point,"

No I specially said the math breaks down then due to QM.

I also mention they don't know exactly how yet. I want to make this very clear!!!!!

However

"Let’s start with the origin of the universe. There is plenty of good scientific evidence that our universe began about 14 billion years ago, in a Big Bang of enormously high density and temperature, long before planets, stars and even atoms existed. But what came before? Krauss in his book discusses the current thinking of physicists that our entire universe could have emerged from a jitter in the amorphous haze of the subatomic world called the quantum foam, in which energy and matter can materialize out of nothing. (On the level of single subatomic particles, physicists have verified in the lab that such creation from “nothing” can occur."

Both Hawking's and Krauss, but there are other ways as well that could explain it naturally. Then, they are human as well and have their own beliefs just like you do, except they know a lot more about it the actual physic's then you and I of course.

It is NOT a done deal of course But it does show a natural explanation that does not break the laws of physic's or invoke a supernatural cause. Just because we don't understand something yet or right now, doesn't mean we might not in the future. We have done a pretty good job of learning about it all over the last 200 years.

Now same question to you what cause the bang?

You know that I do not believe in the BB, but I was not suggesting that in my question line. I'm asking about the miracle first step of zero point origination...why did it happen, what caused it to happen, and where did all the energy come from? And btw, after asking for no more post zero point BB theory...you just went along and posted more!!!

And now you have turned the tables and ask me what caused the BB....since I am a skeptic, I naturally don't think about it now, but in days gone by when I believed BB theory, I could not dream up any plausible idea of the cause, etc.,....the same as all the brightest minds on Earth...no body knows...and that to me means the beginning step was a miracle if the theory were true...though if one were to contemplate a cause beyond the physical universe studied by contemporary science...a supernatural cause could be a rational explanation...iow, a technology so beyond our present understanding that we would see it as magic....h/t Arthur C Clarke..

 

[shawn001]

Indeed, and humans have a strong need to find meaning and comfort in an uncertain existence.

I believe in religion, the fear of death plays a big part,. The fact we might lose "self" is discomforting. So long ago we came up with ideas to keep going after death and preserve our "Self." which turned into many different organized religions across the globe and philosophical ways of thinking.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Most of that gets weeded out with peer review and time and most scientists don't do that in general even though some do.

You could say that with religion, money and politics as well.

"Politicians and the religious both use the word "Truth" in the same way."
Mark Twain

Don't worry..the money and politics has long ago corrupted the peer review system....it's now ridiculed as Pal Review...

Yes, though not religion per se, man made religious institutions...

 

[shawn001]

You know that I do not believe in the BB, but I was not suggesting that in my question line. I'm asking about the miracle first step of zero point origination...why did it happen, what caused it to happen, and where did all the energy come from? And btw, after asking for no more post zero point BB theory...you just went along and posted more!!!

And now you have turned the tables and ask me what caused the BB....since I am a skeptic, I naturally don't think about it now, but in days gone by when I believed BB theory, I could not dream up any plausible idea of the cause, etc.,....the same as all the brightest minds on Earth...no body knows...and that to me means the beginning step was a miracle if the theory were true...though if one were to contemplate a cause beyond the physical universe studied by contemporary science...a supernatural cause could be a rational explanation...iow, a technology so beyond our present understanding that we would see it as magic....h/t Arthur C Clarke..

Its funny to me you don't believe in the BB since we have an actual picture of it and the relic of light of the oldest light in the universe frozen in time, coming from everywhere in the universe, in very fine detail that shows a time when there were no stars or galaxies.

Neither of these has panned out yet, but they are still working on it.

Before the Big Bang: A Twin Universe?

Until very recently, asking what happened at or before the Big Bang was considered by physicists to be a religious question. General relativity theory just doesn’t go there – at T=0, it spews out zeros, infinities, and errors – and so the question didn’t make sense from a scientific view.

Before the Big Bang: A Twin Universe?


Other Universes finally detectable?

New method might uncover "bruises" from run-ins with other universes.

Other Universes Finally Detectable?

 

[shawn001]

You know that I do not believe in the BB, but I was not suggesting that in my question line. I'm asking about the miracle first step of zero point origination...why did it happen, what caused it to happen, and where did all the energy come from? And btw, after asking for no more post zero point BB theory...you just went along and posted more!!!

And now you have turned the tables and ask me what caused the BB....since I am a skeptic, I naturally don't think about it now, but in days gone by when I believed BB theory, I could not dream up any plausible idea of the cause, etc.,....the same as all the brightest minds on Earth...no body knows...and that to me means the beginning step was a miracle if the theory were true...though if one were to contemplate a cause beyond the physical universe studied by contemporary science...a supernatural cause could be a rational explanation...iow, a technology so beyond our present understanding that we would see it as magic....h/t Arthur C Clarke..

So you don't personally believe it and "could not dream up any plausible idea of the cause" so its a miracle and God did it. Got it.

Of course this "no body knows" apply's to God did it.

Okay so skip the BB for the time being.

How did the universe start in your opinion and why is it expanding and what did it expand from and what caused it?