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Is the Death Penalty Constitutional?

Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • No

    Votes: 13 61.9%

  • Total voters
    21

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Recently published figures showing executions of convicts in the US at a 25-year low reminded me of Justice Breyer’s dissent in Glossip v. Gross last term, in which he makes an impeccable case that the death penalty is infliction of cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the the Eighth Amendment: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/14-7955#writing-14-7955_DISSENT_6 I encourage anyone who is doubtful of the death penalty’s unconstitutionality to read it.

Because of its excellence, I wish to summarize some of his points, beginning toward his ending. Quoting Atkins v. Virginia (which quotes Enmund v. Florida), he notes that “if the the death penalty does not fulfill the goals of deterrence or retribution, ‘it is nothing more than the purposeless and needless imposition of pain and suffering and hence an unconstitutional punishment.’” But the death penalty can’t fulfill the goal of deterrence because, as demonstrated by unequivocal evidence that Breyer cites, it actually is an unusual punishment (and thereby serving one criterion of its unconstitutionality):

. . . if we look to States, in more than 60% there is effectively no death penalty, in an additional 18% an execution is rare and unusual, and 6%, i.e., three States, account for 80% of all executions. If we look to population, about 66% of the Nation lives in a State that has not carried out an execution in the last three years. And if we look to counties, in 86% there is effectively no death penalty. It seems fair to say that it is now unusual to find capital punishment in the United States, at least when we consider the Nation as a whole. See Furman, 408 U. S., at 311 (1972) (White, J., concurring) (executions could be so infrequently carried out that they “would cease to be a credible deterrent or measurably to contribute to any other end of punishment in the criminal justice system . . . when imposition of the penalty reaches a certain degree of infrequency, it would be very doubtful that any existing general need for retribution would be measurably satisfied”).

Punishment by death is also unusual on the international scene, at least among developed countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#Abolition_chronology

One of the primary reasons that so many states have either repealed or abandoned their death penalty statutes is due to the stunning cost. A 2008 report by a California Commission found that the death penalty costs the state $137 million per year whereas comparable life sentences without parole would cost $11.5 million per year. A 2000 investigative report in the Palm Beach Post calculated that each execution in Florida cost an additional $23 million above a sentence of life without parole.

Going back to Breyer’s beginning, he argues 3 different grounds on which the death penalty is cruel, easily fulfilling the first prong of the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition (1) its lack of reliability; (2) its arbitrariness; and (3) the excessive delays by which it is carried out.

Breyer explains that, despite the difficulty of investigating crimes that took place long ago, the evidence is unquestionable that in just the past few decades people who have essentially been proven innocent have been executed. He cites 3 such cases, one of whom was posthumously pardoned. These executions of innocents are in addition to the many cases in which the death penalty has been unjustly imposed, including, as of 2014, 175 exonerations prior to execution. Breyer notes (his emphasis):

[E]xonerations occur far more frequently where capital convictions, rather than ordinary criminal convictions, are at issue. Researchers have calculated that courts (or State Governors) are 130 times more likely to exonerate a defendant where a death sentence is at issue. They are nine times more likely to exonerate where a capital murder, rather than a noncapital murder, is at issue. Exonerations 2012 Report 15–16, and nn. 24–26.

Why is that so? To some degree, it must be because the law that governs capital cases is more complex. To some degree, it must reflect the fact that courts scrutinize capital cases more closely. But, to some degree, it likely also reflects a
greater likelihood of an initial wrongful conviction. How could that be so? In the view of researchers who have conducted these studies, it could be so because the crimes at issue in capital cases are typically horrendous murders, and thus accompanied by intense community pressure on police, prosecutors, and jurors to secure a conviction. This pressure creates a greater likelihood of convicting the wrong person. See Gross, Jacoby, Matheson, Montgomery, & Patil, Exonerations in the United States 1989 Through 2003, 95 J. Crim. L. & C. 523, 531–533 (2005); Gross & O’Brien, Frequency and Predictors of False Conviction: Why We Know So Little, and New Data on Capital Cases, 5 J. Empirical L. Studies 927, 956–957 (2008) (noting that, in comparing those who were exonerated from death row to other capital defendants who were not so exonerated, the initial police investigations tended to be shorter for those exonerated); see also B. Garrett, Convicting the Innocent: Where Criminal Prosecutions Go Wrong (2011) (discussing other common causes of wrongful convictions generally including false confessions, mistaken eyewitness testimony, untruthful jailhouse informants, and ineffective defense counsel).

(Continued . . .)
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Breyer elucidates further factors that lead to the high rate of the death penalty being wrongfully imposed, including the practice of “death qualification,” where jurors are eliminated if they are unwilling to impose the death penalty. Quoting a 2006 study published in Arizona State Law Journal: “[f]or over fifty years, empirical investigation has demonstrated that death qualification skews juries toward guilt and death”. Breyer eventually cites the various independent research that consistently shows that about 4% of those sentenced to death are actually innocent.

But the number of wrongful convictions in capital punishment cases--e.g., where the trial court has erred--is much greater:

Between 1973 and 1995, courts identified prejudicial errors in 68% of the capital cases before them. Gelman, Liebman, West, & Kiss, A Broken System: The Persistent Patterns of Reversals of Death Sentences in the United States, 1 J. Empirical L. Studies 209, 217 (2004). State courts on direct and postconviction review overturned 47% of the sentences they reviewed. Id., at 232. Federal courts, reviewing capital cases in habeas corpus proceedings, found error in 40% of those cases. Ibid.

In the next section, Breyer explains why the death penalty is cruel and unconstitutional due to it being arbitrarily imposed.

When the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, this Court acknowledged that the death penalty is (and would be) unconstitutional if “inflicted in an arbitrary and capricious manner.” Gregg, 428 U. S., at 188 (joint opinion of Stewart, Powell, and Stevens, JJ.) . . .

[. . .]

Despite the
Gregg Court’s hope for fair administration of the death penalty, 40 years of further experience make it increasingly clear that the death penalty is imposed arbitrarily, i.e., without the “reasonable consistency” legally necessary to reconcile its use with the Constitution’s commands. Eddings v. Oklahoma, 455 U. S. 104, 112 (1982).

He points to studies showing that the death penalty is rarely sought or given to “the worst of the worst” murderers who are death-penalty eligible. Death penalty sentences are sought and imposed for reasons other than egregiousness of the crime:

. . . studies indicate that the factors that most clearly ought to affect application of the death penalty--namely, comparative egregiousness of the crime--often do not. Other studies show that circumstances that ought not to affect application of the death penalty, such as race, gender, or geography, often do.

Numerous studies, for example, have concluded that individuals accused of murdering white victims, as opposed to black or other minority victims, are more likely to receive the death penalty. See GAO, Report to the Senate and House Committees on the Judiciary: Death Penalty Sentencing 5 (GAO/GGD–90–57, 1990) (82% of the 28 studies conducted between 1972 and 1990 found that race of victim influences capital murder charge or death sentence, a “finding . . . remarkably consistent across data sets, states, data collection methods, and analytic techniques”); Shatz & Dalton, Challenging the Death Penalty with Statistics: Furman, McCleskey, and a Single County Case Study, 34
Cardozo L. Rev. 1227, 1245–1251 (2013) (same conclusion drawn from 20 plus studies conducted between 1990 and 2013).

The excessive delays between sentencing and execution are necessary in order attempt to discover wrongful convictions--many exonerations occur after years of someone sitting on death row--and these drawn-out delays and conditions in which death-row inmates exist are undeniably cruel (are considered cruel when other inmates are subjected to them). Until the 20th century, executions were basically immediate after a verdict and sentence. In 1960, the time between sentencing and execution was on average 2 years. Today the average is more than 12 years, and half of the 3000 on death row have been there more than 15 years, usually in solitary confinement for 22 hours per day, which is literally brain-damaging.

So, in your opinion, is the death penalty constitutional?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member


No.

That's my two cents. I had a good long back and forth debate about this in another thread. My reasons are pretty simple, though.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So, in your opinion, is the death penalty constitutional?
Yes, without a doubt it is perfectly legal.
I still oppose it on various grounds, including some of what he says. I am glad it is being used less and less.
But that doesn't change the fact that it is constitutional.
Tom
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
No, it's not cruel and unusual, not any more so than any of the usual punishments we dish out.

I don't think determent should be a necessary factor in deciding which punishments are acceptable. Retribution shouldn't be a factor, but I think removing people from society for certain crimes, regardless of possibility of reform, is perfectly acceptable. Determent should be a goal, but there are some things where you just don't get to press reset, it's just game over.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I think if you commit murder you should be killed. And it should be carried out within one year, rather then dragging it out for years.

I also think anyone that rapes a child should be killed.

*
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I voted <no> because of the specific question about being cruel & unusual.
But I see that it could be seen as unconstitutional because it denies due process,
which would continue even after sentencing, & during imposition thereof.
Justice is far from perfect, being riddled with incompetence & corruption.
If an appeal is needed, that becomes moot after the defendant was executed.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I didn't vote because of how the question was worded. Is it "cruel and unusual" according to the Constitution and subsequent SCOTUS decisions? No. Do I believe it is "cruel and unusual"? Yes.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Nous
You do realize that your OP question title and the question in the poll are contradictory, right? It might confuse people.
Tom
I realized that as soon as I posted. I hoped that someone would come along and point out my stupidity and straighten the thing out. So thanks.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think if you commit murder you should be killed. And it should be carried out within one year, rather then dragging it out for years.
What do you think about those people who are sentenced to death but didn't commit murder?

The fact is that the "worst of the worst" murderers are rarely given the death penalty, and the penalty has been shown to be imposed for arbitrary and capricious reasons. Does this fact affect your opinion in any way?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I didn't vote because of how the question was worded. Is it "cruel and unusual" according to the Constitution and subsequent SCOTUS decisions? No. Do I believe it is "cruel and unusual"? Yes.

Of course, it has only been in Furman and Gregg that the Court has even vaguely examined the issue of whether the death penalty violates the Eighth Amendment; all other death penalty cases only inquired as to whether some particular method of execution was cruel and unusual. In Gregg, Stevens was one the plurality that reinstated the penalty, and since his retirement, he has said that he regrets that decision. Gregg’s reinstatement was on the premise that the newly reformulated Georgia death penalty statute protected from the penalty being applied “in an arbitrary and capricious manner.” The evidence that Breyer cited, which wasn’t available in 1976, unequivocally shows that the death penalty is in fact handed out arbitrarily and capriciously, rarely given to the “worst of the worst” murderers and commonly given on the basis of the race of the victim and/or perpetrator. So, like Breyer and Ginsburg (and apparently you), I conclude that the death penalty is objectively unconstitutional on the basis (inter alia) of the Court’s own stated criteria, regardless of the fact that the Court held Georgia’s statute constitutional in 1976.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Which question are you answering? I asked the opposite question in the title as I did in poll. And what are your reasons for your answer?
Havent seen this post in a bit. To both questions, the title and OP part 2, I dont see the death penalty as constitutional.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Havent seen this post in a bit. To both questions, the title and OP part 2, I dont see the death penalty as constitutional.
Good for you. Are you surprised at the larger percentage (as of now, according to the poll here) of people who consider it constitutional?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Good for you. Are you surprised at the larger percentage (as of now, according to the poll here) of people who consider it constitutional?

Why would I be surprised? Thats like saying "are you surprised that people believe killing your son is good because he murdererd fifty people and commited a capitol crime?"

His actions doesnt change he is a human being. Thats my son. He is an adult. He suffers the onsequences of his actions.To kill him for them is barbaric. No bad deed in the world warrents another persons death.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
What do you think about those people who are sentenced to death but didn't commit murder?

The fact is that the "worst of the worst" murderers are rarely given the death penalty, and the penalty has been shown to be imposed for arbitrary and capricious reasons. Does this fact affect your opinion in any way?

No it doesn't. I'm sure some still get wrongly convicted, but it is far less likely now.

The facts are that we always allow for the bad, - if the good heavily outweighs it.

For instance - medications. They all have problems - causing cancer, killing people, etc.

Even Aspirin kills people. We don't scream for Aspirin to be taken off the shelf.

*
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No it doesn't. I'm sure some still get wrongly convicted, but it is far less likely now.

The facts are that we always allow for the bad, - if the good heavily outweighs it.

For instance - medications. They all have problems - causing cancer, killing people, etc.

Even Aspirin kills people. We don't scream for Aspirin to be taken off the shelf.

*
Except, imo, the "good" does not outweigh the bad because the "good" is also bad. The death penalty does not bring the one murdered back to life, nor does it prevent homicides as studies have shown, plus it's more expensive than life in prison on the average.

And, philosophically, "why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
And, philosophically, "why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?".
To be killed is generally most undesirable.
So the threat of being killed as punishment for killing is no mere irony.
The real questions are.....
1) Are the verdicts reliable enuf?
2) Does it have the intended effect of disincentivizing crime?

Regarding #1, I say no.
Regarding #2, I don't know.
 
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