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Is the Enlightenment in Crisis?

Is the Enlightenment in Crisis

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • It's more complicated (please explain)

    Votes: 5 35.7%

  • Total voters
    14

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm interested in finding out how many people agree that the "enlightenment" is in crisis. The Enlightenment refers to the "Age of Enlightenment" dating back to the 18th century in which reason became the primary source of authority and legitimacy, an emphasis on the scientific method and reductionism whilst questining religious orthodoxy and ultimately leading to the advance of ideals of liberty, progress, tolerance, constitutional government and the seperation of church and state.

Trump's election victory is symbolic in that the United States is now governed by a person who has regularly rejected scientific evidence (such as on Climate Change), advanced conspiracy theories (such as the Birther Controversy) as well as adopting a range of policy positions that are at best incoherent, assuming he can or does go through with them at all. You could perhaps say the same of George W. Bush junior, but with Trump its more even acute. Taken in isolation this is pretty shocking, but seen in terms of a bigger picture it represents a symptom of the intellectual decay of western societies as we have increasingly attacked the concept of objective truth and using science and reason to attain it.

Depending how you look at it the "symptoms" of crisis could be dated as far back as the early 20th century and the adoption of theories in physics, such as Qauntum Mechanics, Choas Theory or Big Bang Cosmology, that undermined our belief in science's ability to gain knowledge of the physical world. Whether it is the unpredictability of quantum particles, the belief in "unobservable" phenemeona such as "dark matter", or questioning the existence of matter itself- all of this fundamentally weakened materialism as a philosophy by which we could claim to know the world around us through science. [Some may put it earlier or later, but for the sake of argument I'll say it started here.]

The rise of Fascism and Communism in the 1920's and 30's both represented challanges to our understanding of Science, Reason and many of the liberal political ideals that arose from it. This was particuarly true in the 1930's when it looked likely liberalism might go extinct as an economic and political system during the Great Depression. There ultimate failure however, came at the cost of a retreat in science away from "scientific" explanations of man and society as threats to personal liberty such as Marxism or Social Darwinism, as well as making the accusation that these are unproven dogmas opposed to free thought and are pseudo-science.

By the 60's, many ideas of the "New Left" and what eventually evolved into "political correctness" restricted the scope of legitimate free thought in society, Post-Modern views which attacked the objectivity of truth and science as a social construct essentially "equal" to religion in it's subject value, along with many "New Age" religious beliefs as western and eastern religions began to meet and converge on a large scale.

By the 70's, we saw the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East and a resurgence of Christian fundamentalism in the USA. each of these have made significant inroads in challanging belief in natural science such as advocacy of young-earth creationism, intelligent design, literal readings of the Quran and the bible, and deriving political authority from revelation rather than reason.

By the 1980's, the rise of "neoliberalism" was driven heavily by the power of Cold War propaganda that treated liberty as a natural and unalterable condition, based using economic theories which focus on individual transactions and ignoring much larger historical changes as capitalist economies evolved towards "corporate capitalism" with a high degree of planning within corporations, the exercise of corporate power in the state and through mass media over public opinion by advertising and manufactured realities like "reality TV".

Whilst these are tenous threads drawn together and could be debated in turn, each of them represents a significant retreat in the Enlightenment in so far as reason has been replaced by sources of authority other than the individual and the de-valuation of science as a means to attain knowledge. Where this gets serious, is how these forces have then gone from being intellectual challanges to political ones that endangers democratic and liberal institutions, particuarly by undermining public confidence in these institutions by propaganda, and systematic mis-information to manipulate people to vote, think, buy and ultimately "life" in a way that suits a small minority who gains either wealth and power by denying the people the knowledge that means they could govern themselves.

I realise pointing at Trump is not going to be popular with his supporters who- rightly- point to many of the failings and injustices of the status quo as a source of discontent that needs to be addressed. However, many of the criticisms of the current system are the same on both the right and the left in attacking unrestricted government and corporate power, as well the influence of religion on government and societ, as a threat both to reason, science and personal liberty. Both the "right" anf the "left", however you define them, originate from principles shared from the Enlightenment so this is an area where common ground can and arguably should be found. The positive side of this is that the internet- like the printing press- has revolutionise our access to information, and continues to do so. That perhaps may be a source of a "new enlightenment" to challange the crisis of the old one.

What I am interested in, is whether people agree that the enlightenment is in "crisis" and that reason and science are now on the defensive and that "something" (even if its nebulous) should be done. All responses- long and short- are welcome. :)

[p.s. I Voted "Yes" in the Poll.]
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I said yes because I feel that reason and empiricism are being increasingly and willingly abandoned. The Brexit vote in the UK was largely seen as giving the 'establishment' the 'middle finger' because people don't trust experts (the people who actually know their ****) any more. This coupled with the fact that, increasingly, it is becoming more & more dangerous to even criticise certain belief systems, leads me to believe that we're slowly abandoning the notions of freedom of speech and that we should criticise, belittle & even mock bad ideas in order to show them for what they are.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I voted it's complicated, which it is. Very well constructed argument you posted, by the way. As you say we could pick apart the different threads you presented, but in the interest of the overall thing here's what I would say. What you are referring to overall is Modernity which goes into most all these areas you mentioned. Is Modernity in crisis?

Trying to keep in general here, I believe this is a crisis in the sense of contractions one experiences giving birth. I'll use a different metaphor here. The rise of postmodernity is in fact quite valid in its criticisms of the self-assured certitudes that are part of Modernity, 'Science will fix everything', or explain everything types of attitudes. Assumptions about reality, and so forth. The deconstruction you see in postmodernity is actually an exercise in undercutting these mindsets for the purpose to show these things are considerably less certain then we assume, and that becomes an invitation to go deeper, not just trash it and throw everything away. I will grant there are those who leave nothing by a smoking ruin of modernity, but that is not the value of it. It has to go that next step and build truth.

So the metaphor I suggest is like a wave on the ocean hitting the shore. Modernity, which came to shore in the Enlightenment was the next big wave from the previous wave that swept the shore. What you see happening here is in fact a bit of a retreat, but it's only the action of the wave being pulled back from the shore as the next wave to supersede it comes in behind it. Postmodernity is actually, in my opinion that final edge of Modernity where it's reason and rationality have to one last reach out on the shore, as the next wave prepares to come in once the wave retreats from the shore. What you see with all the rise of fundamentalism and whatnot is the seashells and bits that are now exposed in the sand, where the seagulls will feast, like Trump exploiting the banquet at his feet.

The next wave is what others call things like Integral, or post-postmodernity, or meta-modernity. I prefer Integral. Right now that is the leading edge of that next wave approaching. And what these do is not to get rid of science, or get rid of postmodernity, or get rid of mythic systems, but rather to "transcend and include" as the saying goes what came before. Science and reason to be highly valued, but also understood or held in a larger framework which realizes its appropriate uses and strengths, and its weaknesses.

You can read about that "post-postmodernity" a little here, if you're not familiar with it. http://www.gaiamind.org/Gebser.html

In short, we're having a child. Something new is coming, even as we retreat from the shore to expose what's under the wave. Change is not painless, but I don't see it as the end of the world, quite yet. It may be for many, however.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I said yes because I feel that reason and empiricism are being increasingly and willingly abandoned. The Brexit vote in the UK was largely seen as giving the 'establishment' the 'middle finger' because people don't trust experts (the people who actually know their ****) any more. This coupled with the fact that, increasingly, it is becoming more & more dangerous to even criticise certain belief systems, leads me to believe that we're slowly abandoning the notions of freedom of speech and that we should criticise, belittle & even mock bad ideas in order to show them for what they are.

Well said. Brexit was a really good example of how "lack of information" and mis-information came together to make bad decisions. Do you have any "bad ideas" in mind when you say they are beyond criticism?

I voted it's complicated, which it is. Very well constructed argument you posted, by the way. As you say we could pick apart the different threads you presented, but in the interest of the overall thing here's what I would say. What you are referring to overall is Modernity which goes into most all these areas you mentioned. Is Modernity in crisis?

Trying to keep in general here, I believe this is a crisis in the sense of contractions one experiences giving birth. I'll use a different metaphor here. The rise of postmodernity is in fact quite valid in its criticisms of the self-assured certitudes that are part of Modernity, 'Science will fix everything', or explain everything types of attitudes. Assumptions about reality, and so forth. The deconstruction you see in postmodernity is actually an exercise in undercutting these mindsets for the purpose to show these things are considerably less certain then we assume, and that becomes an invitation to go deeper, not just trash it and throw everything away. I will grant there are those who leave nothing by a smoking ruin of modernity, but that is not the value of it. It has to go that next step and build truth.

So the metaphor I suggest is like a wave on the ocean hitting the shore. Modernity, which came to shore in the Enlightenment was the next big wave from the previous wave that swept the shore. What you see happening here is in fact a bit of a retreat, but it's only the action of the wave being pulled back from the shore as the next wave to supersede it comes in behind it. Postmodernity is actually, in my opinion that final edge of Modernity where it's reason and rationality have to one last reach out on the shore, as the next wave prepares to come in once the wave retreats from the shore. What you see with all the rise of fundamentalism and whatnot is the seashells and bits that are now exposed in the sand, where the seagulls will feast, like Trump exploiting the banquet at his feet.

The next wave is what others call things like Integral, or post-postmodernity, or meta-modernity. I prefer Integral. Right now that is the leading edge of that next wave approaching. And what these do is not to get rid of science, or get rid of postmodernity, or get rid of mythic systems, but rather to "transcend and include" as the saying goes what came before. Science and reason to be highly valued, but also understood or held in a larger framework which realizes its appropriate uses and strengths, and its weaknesses.

You can read about that "post-postmodernity" a little here, if you're not familiar with it. http://www.gaiamind.org/Gebser.html

In short, we're having a child. Something new is coming, even as we retreat from the shore to expose what's under the wave. Change is not painless, but I don't see it as the end of the world, quite yet. It may be for many, however.

Wow. Just Wow. A really stunning reply. :D

I'm sort of basing the idea off marxist theories of a "general crisis of capitalism", affecting politics, economics and ideology. In that sense- yes, I think there is a crisis of modernity- but I'm still sceptical as to whether its primarily due to the breakdown of capitalism in its internal contradictions and reduced to economics.

I think post-modernists have a point in that we take it for granted that science is objectively true but may well have taken it too far in questioning the notion of objective truth itself as a social construct.

Thanks for the link. I'll have to sit and give it a read when I have the time. :)
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not sure. Enlightenment was an extreme reaction to a particular social order. They decided to look to reason as a source of authority. That extreme reaction could be hard to maintain and probably competes with modern entertainments.
 
I'm interested in finding out how many people agree that the "enlightenment" is in crisis. The Enlightenment refers to the "Age of Enlightenment" dating back to the 18th century in which reason became the primary source of authority and legitimacy, an emphasis on the scientific method and reductionism whilst questining religious orthodoxy and ultimately leading to the advance of ideals of liberty, progress, tolerance, constitutional government and the seperation of church and state.

A common misconception about 'The Enlightenment' is that liberty and tolerance are fundamentally 'Enlightenment values'.

Secular Humanists like to think that it was 'science and reason' that civilised people by turning them away from 'harmful superstitions' because they have liberal values and they also have a secular rationalist worldview.

In reality though, one branch of the Enlightenment led to Secular Humanism, while others led to the Reign of Terror, Marxism/Leninism and scientific racism. Humanists like to pretend that the illiberal side of the Enlightenment didn't exist, and ignore that a rationalist approach to the world can just as easily lead away from humanistic values as towards them.

The problem is that the sciences don't seem to support a humanistic morality, if anything they seem to contradict it. Not to mention that he human mind didn't evolve to be a tool of reason

Enlightenment values of science and reason would seem to suggest that, collectively, we are unlikely to live in a world driven by Enlightenment values.

What I am interested in, is whether people agree that the enlightenment is in "crisis" and that reason and science are now on the defensive and that "something" (even if its nebulous) should be done.

It's not a new phenomenon, going back 200 years to the Romantic tradition you have had rejection to the perceived sterility of the Enlightenment worldview. The Romantic focus on feeling, experience and emotion was a factor in the blood and soil nationalism of the 19th & 20th C

Reason and science have always been on the defensive because they are human creations that have no absolute right to primacy in any given society.

Many rationalists have convinced themselves that these are universal and inevitable; people will gradually move towards these as they become more educated. The 'End of History' type scenarios where our existence is magically given some kind of teleology.

It is often said that Trump won because of the lack of education amongst large sectors of the electorate, but this is another example of a common theme that has always been wrong - the myth of liberal progress. The Humanist conceit that "if only people were more educated then they would agree with me".

This is one of the reasons behind the rise of Trump and his analogues: educated liberals holding much of the working class in contempt and ridiculing their values.

Values and emotions have always been more important than reason though (including for most 'rationalists'). If there is 'something to be done' one of the first things necessary is for champions of 'Enlightenment values' to accept that theirs is not the only legitimate worldview, and that it is not something that is intrinsic to human nature.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Well said. Brexit was a really good example of how "lack of information" and mis-information came together to make bad decisions. Do you have any "bad ideas" in mind when you say they are beyond criticism?

That's how I feel and I'm glad the Brexit campaign is having its day in court for misleading so many people.

As to your other question: come on, man. Do you really need to ask? :p Yes, I do:

The bad idea that leaps to mind first & foremost is the increasingly apparent but unspoken social taboo in Western societies which is little more than a self-imposed blasphemy law which:
  • Forbids criticism or mockery of Islam and Islamism; this same taboo which has seen Maajid Nawaz (a practising Muslim) labelled as an anti-Muslim bigot for criticising an idea and has seen British gymnast Louis Smith receive death threats as well as the risk of losing his job;
  • Perpetuates the notion that non-Muslims should be subject to the Islamic rule that Muhammad cannot be drawn. After the Danish newspaper attacks, the West reacted with revulsion and Everybody Draw Muhammad Day was widely participated in. Yet after the Charlie Hebdo murders... not so much. In fact it's gone the opposite way, with people actively trying to have CH denied awards for journalistic bravery;
  • Perpetuates the idea of 'Islamophobia' and that it is widespread in society;
  • Gives people the notion that you can 'punch downward' against the second largest religion on the planet;
  • Puts forth the idea that any position that is anti-Islam must inherently be ignorant & irrational.

So basically it's becoming 'unfashionable' to criticise, question or mock dogmas and their results.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's how I feel and I'm glad the Brexit campaign is having its day in court for misleading so many people.

As to your other question: come on, man. Do you really need to ask? :p Yes, I do:

The bad idea that leaps to mind first & foremost is the increasingly apparent but unspoken social taboo in Western societies which is little more than a self-imposed blasphemy law which:
  • Forbids criticism or mockery of Islam and Islamism; this same taboo which has seen Maajid Nawaz (a practising Muslim) labelled as an anti-Muslim bigot for criticising an idea and has seen British gymnast Louis Smith receive death threats as well as the risk of losing his job;
  • Perpetuates the notion that non-Muslims should be subject to the Islamic rule that Muhammad cannot be drawn. After the Danish newspaper attacks, the West reacted with revulsion and Everybody Draw Muhammad Day was widely participated in. Yet after the Charlie Hebdo murders... not so much. In fact it's gone the opposite way, with people actively trying to have CH denied awards for journalistic bravery;
  • Perpetuates the idea of 'Islamophobia' and that it is widespread in society;
  • Gives people the notion that you can 'punch downward' against the second largest religion on the planet;
  • Puts forth the idea that any position that is anti-Islam must inherently be ignorant & irrational.

So basically it's becoming 'unfashionable' to criticise, question or mock dogmas and their results.

The word "Islam" immediately jumped out at me when I thought of what it could be. But I thought I'd check anyway. :D
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A common misconception about 'The Enlightenment' is that liberty and tolerance are fundamentally 'Enlightenment values'.

Secular Humanists like to think that it was 'science and reason' that civilised people by turning them away from 'harmful superstitions' because they have liberal values and they also have a secular rationalist worldview.

In reality though, one branch of the Enlightenment led to Secular Humanism, while others led to the Reign of Terror, Marxism/Leninism and scientific racism. Humanists like to pretend that the illiberal side of the Enlightenment didn't exist, and ignore that a rationalist approach to the world can just as easily lead away from humanistic values as towards them.

The problem is that the sciences don't seem to support a humanistic morality, if anything they seem to contradict it. Not to mention that he human mind didn't evolve to be a tool of reason

Enlightenment values of science and reason would seem to suggest that, collectively, we are unlikely to live in a world driven by Enlightenment values.



It's not a new phenomenon, going back 200 years to the Romantic tradition you have had rejection to the perceived sterility of the Enlightenment worldview. The Romantic focus on feeling, experience and emotion was a factor in the blood and soil nationalism of the 19th & 20th C

Reason and science have always been on the defensive because they are human creations that have no absolute right to primacy in any given society.

Many rationalists have convinced themselves that these are universal and inevitable; people will gradually move towards these as they become more educated. The 'End of History' type scenarios where our existence is magically given some kind of teleology.

It is often said that Trump won because of the lack of education amongst large sectors of the electorate, but this is another example of a common theme that has always been wrong - the myth of liberal progress. The Humanist conceit that "if only people were more educated then they would agree with me".

This is one of the reasons behind the rise of Trump and his analogues: educated liberals holding much of the working class in contempt and ridiculing their values.

Values and emotions have always been more important than reason though (including for most 'rationalists'). If there is 'something to be done' one of the first things necessary is for champions of 'Enlightenment values' to accept that theirs is not the only legitimate worldview, and that it is not something that is intrinsic to human nature.

Would you include the idea of progress in that catagory?

I mean in terms of improvements in production by science and technology there is "progress" of a physical sense rather than necessarily as a legacy of Christian theology on liberal humanism.
 
Would you include the idea of progress in that catagory?

I mean in terms of improvements in production by science and technology there is "progress" of a physical sense rather than necessarily as a legacy of Christian theology on liberal humanism.

Technological progress is undeniable and inevitable. Many people assume that social progress goes hand in hand with technological progress, although that is a myth.

"The general character and disposition of the Rationalist are, I
think, not difficult to identify. At bottom he stands (he always
stands) for independence of mind on all occasions, for thought free
from obligation to any authority save the authority of 'reason'. His
circumstances in the modern world have made him contentious: he
is the enemy of authority, of prejudice, of the merely traditional,
customary or habitual. His mental attitude is at once sceptical and
optimistic: sceptical, because there is no opinion, no habit, no belief,
nothing so firmly rooted or so widely held that he hesitates to question
it and to judge it by what he calls his 'reason'; optimistic,
because the Rationalist never doubts the power of his 'reason' (when
properly applied) to determine the worth of a thing, the truth of an
opinion or the propriety of an action. Moreover, he is fortified by a
belief in a 'reason' common to all mankind, a common power of
rational consideration, which is the ground and inspiration of argument:
set up on his door is the precept of Parmenides - judge by
rational argument. But besides this, which gives the Rationalist a
touch of intellectual equalitarianism, he is something also of an
individualist, finding it difficult to believe that anyone who can
think honestly and clearly will think differently from himself...

The deeper motivations which encouraged and developed this
intellectual fashion are, not unnaturally, obscure; they are hidden
in the recesses of European society. But among its other connections,
it is certainly closely allied with a decline in the belief in Providence:
a beneficient and infallible technique replaced a beneficient and infallible
God; and where Providence was not available to correct the
mistakes of men it was all the more necessary to prevent such mistakes.
Certainly, also, its provenance is a society or a generation
which thinks what it has discovered for itself is more important than
what it has inherited, an age over-impressed with its own accomplishment
and liable to those illusions of intellectual grandeur which
are the characteristic lunacy of post-Renaissance Europe"

Michael Oakeshott - Rationalism in politics (which is a very good book btw)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I voted that it's more complicated but my brain is only now coming online so I'll have to chew on this a bit over 10 or 12 cups of coffee.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Technological progress is undeniable and inevitable. Many people assume that social progress goes hand in hand with technological progress, although that is a myth.

"The general character and disposition of the Rationalist are, I
think, not difficult to identify. At bottom he stands (he always
stands) for independence of mind on all occasions, for thought free
from obligation to any authority save the authority of 'reason'. His
circumstances in the modern world have made him contentious: he
is the enemy of authority, of prejudice, of the merely traditional,
customary or habitual. His mental attitude is at once sceptical and
optimistic: sceptical, because there is no opinion, no habit, no belief,
nothing so firmly rooted or so widely held that he hesitates to question
it and to judge it by what he calls his 'reason'; optimistic,
because the Rationalist never doubts the power of his 'reason' (when
properly applied) to determine the worth of a thing, the truth of an
opinion or the propriety of an action. Moreover, he is fortified by a
belief in a 'reason' common to all mankind, a common power of
rational consideration, which is the ground and inspiration of argument:
set up on his door is the precept of Parmenides - judge by
rational argument. But besides this, which gives the Rationalist a
touch of intellectual equalitarianism, he is something also of an
individualist, finding it difficult to believe that anyone who can
think honestly and clearly will think differently from himself...

The deeper motivations which encouraged and developed this
intellectual fashion are, not unnaturally, obscure; they are hidden
in the recesses of European society. But among its other connections,
it is certainly closely allied with a decline in the belief in Providence:
a beneficient and infallible technique replaced a beneficient and infallible
God; and where Providence was not available to correct the
mistakes of men it was all the more necessary to prevent such mistakes.
Certainly, also, its provenance is a society or a generation
which thinks what it has discovered for itself is more important than
what it has inherited, an age over-impressed with its own accomplishment
and liable to those illusions of intellectual grandeur which
are the characteristic lunacy of post-Renaissance Europe"

Michael Oakeshott - Rationalism in politics (which is a very good book btw)

Interesting. Thanks for that. :)

Isn't treating social progress as seperate from technological progress a legacy of christian theology?

I.e. that the mind/soul is seperate from the body and matter, and therefore progress in the utilisation of matter/body does not determine social or moral progress in the mind?

Treating the two as seperate implies that morality is non-physical.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The Age Of Enlightenment was invented by people who wanted to believe that they were better than those who came before. They weren't. They were just overly impressed with themselves.
Reason has always taken a back seat to emotion.
Is Trump a sign that things are worse?
Nah.
Many preceding politicians believed or pursued bogus or terrible things....
- The Iraq war
- Obamcare
- Sky fairies
- 1994 crime bill
- Wage & price controls
- The military draft
- Paying farmers to not grow crops
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
It depends on context. For example, the Enlightenment started a critical study of religion, but that degenerated: they had Hume, we have Dawkins.

It depends on where you look. Things like denial of evolution and climate change are USian rather than European. Enlightenment isn't being lost in Islam: they lost it about 700 years ago.

When we start talking about "rejection of experts", we have to be careful of whom we classify as experts. Scientists are experts, but only in the field in which they practice. Economists are not experts. How many of them foresaw the current financial crisis? How many can agree on what to do about it? Those who warned that Brexit would be a disaster are mostly those who wanted Britain to adopt the Euro!
 
Isn't treating social progress as seperate from technological progress a legacy of christian theology?


I assume the ancients believed in technological progress, but the idea of social progress, that history has a direction, is a legacy of monotheism.

It's the secular equivalent of salvation, except through reason rather than Christ.
 
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