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Is the Euro going to collapse?

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
9 days now I guess :)

Well, I have proven before that I have no grasp on economy, so maybe you are right.
I will believe it when it happens, not before.

Either way I think it is clear that the euro in its current form is a mistake.
This is an expensive way to learn that lesson, but maybe that means ir will be remembered :)
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Interesting take on this issue, from Ron Paul:

The Fed's latest actions in cooperating with foreign central banks to undertake liquidity swaps of dollars for foreign currencies is another reason why Congress needs enhanced power to oversee and audit the Fed. Under current law Congress cannot examine these types of agreements. Those who would argue that auditing the Fed or these agreements with central banks harms the Fed's independence should reevaluate the Fed's supposed independence when the Fed bails out Europe so soon after President Obama promised US assistance in resolving the Euro crisis.

Rather than calming markets, these arrangements should indicate just how frightened governments around the world are about the European financial crisis. Central banks are grasping at straws, hoping that flooding the world with money created out of thin air will somehow resolve a crisis caused by uncontrolled government spending and irresponsible debt issuance. Congress should not permit this type of open-ended commitment on the part of the Fed, a commitment which could easily run into the trillions of dollars. These dollar swaps are purely inflationary and will harm American consumers as much as any form of quantitative easing.

The Fed is behaving much as it did during the 2008 financial crisis, only this time instead of bailing out politically well-connected too-big-to-fail firms it is bailing out profligate government spending. Citizens the world over deserve better than this. They deserve sound money that cannot be manipulated and created out of thin air by central planners who promise printed prosperity. Fiat money caused this European crisis and the financial crisis before it. More fiat money is not the cure. The global fiat currency system has proven itself a failure, we need real monetary reform. We need sound money.

Statement on the Fed's Continued Euro Bailout
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Interesting take on this issue, from Ron Paul:

The Fed's latest actions in cooperating with foreign central banks to undertake liquidity swaps of dollars for foreign currencies is another reason why Congress needs enhanced power to oversee and audit the Fed. Under current law Congress cannot examine these types of agreements. Those who would argue that auditing the Fed or these agreements with central banks harms the Fed's independence should reevaluate the Fed's supposed independence when the Fed bails out Europe so soon after President Obama promised US assistance in resolving the Euro crisis.

Rather than calming markets, these arrangements should indicate just how frightened governments around the world are about the European financial crisis. Central banks are grasping at straws, hoping that flooding the world with money created out of thin air will somehow resolve a crisis caused by uncontrolled government spending and irresponsible debt issuance. Congress should not permit this type of open-ended commitment on the part of the Fed, a commitment which could easily run into the trillions of dollars. These dollar swaps are purely inflationary and will harm American consumers as much as any form of quantitative easing.

The Fed is behaving much as it did during the 2008 financial crisis, only this time instead of bailing out politically well-connected too-big-to-fail firms it is bailing out profligate government spending. Citizens the world over deserve better than this. They deserve sound money that cannot be manipulated and created out of thin air by central planners who promise printed prosperity. Fiat money caused this European crisis and the financial crisis before it. More fiat money is not the cure. The global fiat currency system has proven itself a failure, we need real monetary reform. We need sound money.

Statement on the Fed's Continued Euro Bailout
"'Irresponsible Spending" - This bull proves that if you say something often enough people will believe you.

Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem


If I say that a million more times will you believe me?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
With views like Paul's, he'll never win the presidency.
The masses love the idea of printing new money.
And there are always economists who will preach this dogma.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
"'Irresponsible Spending" - This bull proves that if you say something often enough people will believe you.

Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem
Government spending is not the Euro's problem


If I say that a million more times will you believe me?

So you don't think that irresponsible government spending and bad lending practices have contributed to the problems in Greece, which have spread outward to other EU countries?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
With views like Paul's, he'll never win the presidency.
The masses love the idea of printing new money.
And there are always economists who will preach this dogma.

I'll still probably vote for him, just on principle. I mean, it's not like we have any other great choices.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
Interesting take on this issue, from Ron Paul:

The Fed's latest actions in cooperating with foreign central banks to undertake liquidity swaps of dollars for foreign currencies is another reason why Congress needs enhanced power to oversee and audit the Fed. Under current law Congress cannot examine these types of agreements. Those who would argue that auditing the Fed or these agreements with central banks harms the Fed's independence should reevaluate the Fed's supposed independence when the Fed bails out Europe so soon after President Obama promised US assistance in resolving the Euro crisis.

Rather than calming markets, these arrangements should indicate just how frightened governments around the world are about the European financial crisis. Central banks are grasping at straws, hoping that flooding the world with money created out of thin air will somehow resolve a crisis caused by uncontrolled government spending and irresponsible debt issuance. Congress should not permit this type of open-ended commitment on the part of the Fed, a commitment which could easily run into the trillions of dollars. These dollar swaps are purely inflationary and will harm American consumers as much as any form of quantitative easing.

The Fed is behaving much as it did during the 2008 financial crisis, only this time instead of bailing out politically well-connected too-big-to-fail firms it is bailing out profligate government spending. Citizens the world over deserve better than this. They deserve sound money that cannot be manipulated and created out of thin air by central planners who promise printed prosperity. Fiat money caused this European crisis and the financial crisis before it. More fiat money is not the cure. The global fiat currency system has proven itself a failure, we need real monetary reform. We need sound money.

Statement on the Fed's Continued Euro Bailout
Money is always created out of thin air... what's your point?

Oh, creating more money than usually out of thin air. yes, that sounds like a bad idea. :D

Some people seem to think that is the thing to do though, but I don't get it :confused:
But then again, me and economy never developed an understanding, so what do I know. I am just thinking
hyperinflation.jpg
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
So you don't think that irresponsible government spending and bad lending practices have contributed to the problems in Greece, which have spread outward to other EU countries?

Any analysis which places Greece as the root of the Euro's woes has entirely missed the point.
The crisis of the Euro is structural. It is not down to Greek government spending.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
Any analysis which places Greece as the root of the Euro's woes has entirely missed the point.
The crisis of the Euro is structural. It is not down to Greek government spending.
Yes the problem is structural. The underlying structure of the Euro is bad.

But, problems like Greek government spending are the reasons why the Euro is comming apart.
If things had been constructed correctly Greece would either not have been a part of the Euro or there would have been more central control over the Greek economy.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Yes the problem is structural. The underlying structure of the Euro is bad.

But, problems like Greek government spending are the reasons why the Euro is comming apart.
If things had been constructed correctly Greece would either not have been a part of the Euro or there would have been more central control over the Greek economy.

Greece, Ireland or Portugal going *pop* wouldn't bring down the Euro.
Italy, Spain or even France doing so will.
Italy seems to be at the edge of the cliff. It has a huge debt burden but it's current spending is ok. I imagine it's current defecit might be lower than Denmarks :D
But I'd have to check.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Money is always created out of thin air... what's your point?
Oh, creating more money than usually out of thin air. yes, that sounds like a bad idea. :D
If the money supply grows at the same rate as the economy, we're in good shape.
Grow it faster, & the money supply is diluted. Hey, presto! We have inflation.

Some people seem to think that is the thing to do though, but I don't get it :confused:
But then again, me and economy never developed an understanding, so what do I know. I am just thinking
hyperinflation.jpg
Much of what is proffered as "economics" isn't testable, & functions a lot like religion.
The high priests of this or that school of thought will preach at us.
Those who like what they hear will believe.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
If the money supply grows at the same rate as the economy, we're in good shape.
Grow it faster, & the money supply is diluted. Hey, presto! We have inflation.
So you print more money and if the economy grows you get a way with it, if not you just make things worse.

I hope there is some reason to believe that printing money will cause the economy to grow, is not this is just stupid :confused:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So you print more money and if the economy grows you get a way with it, if not you just make things worse.
That sounds right.
I'd alter it slightly to say that we just increase the risk of making things worse.

I hope there is some reason to believe that printing money will cause the economy to grow, is not this is just stupid :confused:
Economics boils down to psychology. I buy Keynes' argument that short term deficit spending can have a useful effect. I part ways with how economists apply his approach:
1) In a government run by politicians (not disciplined economists), short term deficit spending can easily become long term if it initially fails.
2) Short term deficit spending could also have a deleterious effect.
 
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