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Is the First Cause argument Valid?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
When I first heard of the First Cause argument, it said, "everything that exists needs a cause, and that cause is God." Now, this made no sense to me, as I immediately thought, "Well, doesn't God need a cause too if he exists?"

These days, that version of the argument has apparently fallen out of favour, due (I suspect) to that very objection. Instead, I see the following version:

  1. Everything that exists had a beginning
  2. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
  3. The Universe exists
  4. Therefore the Universe had a beginning
  5. Therefore the Universe had a cause
  6. I call this cause, the creator of the Universe, God
This attempts to get around the obvious flaw in the previous version by saying that only things that have beginnings require causes, so God doesn't require a cause because he never had a beginning. He is ETERNAL (whatever that means).

It presents God as a "necessary being, " a being without whom nothing else would exist. It was originally proposed (at least in it's commonly known form) by Thomas Aquinas, who had four versions of this basic argument.
  1. First, he argues that the chain of movers must have a first mover because nothing can move itself. (Moving here refers to any kind of change, not just change of place.) If the whole chain of moving things had no first mover, it could not now be moving, as it is. If there were an infinite regress of movers with no first mover, no motion could ever begin, and if it never began, it could not go on and exist now. But it does go on, it does exist now. Therefore it began, and therefore there is a first mover.
  2. Second, he expands the proof from proving a cause of motion to proving a cause of existence, or efficient cause. He argues that if there were no first efficient cause, or cause of the universe's coming into being, then there could be no second causes because second causes (i.e., caused causes) are dependent on (i.e., caused by) a first cause (i.e., an uncaused cause). But there are second causes all around us. Therefore there must be a first cause.
  3. Third, he argues that if there were no eternal, necessary, and immortal being, if everything had a possibility of not being, of ceasing to be, then eventually this possibility of ceasing to be would be realized for everything. In other words, if everything could die, then, given infinite time, everything would eventually die. But in that case nothing could start up again. We would have universal death, for a being that has ceased to exist cannot cause itself or anything else to begin to exist again. And if there is no God, then there must have been infinite time, the universe must have been here always, with no beginning, no first cause. But this universal death has not happened; things do exist! Therefore there must be a necessary being that cannot not be, cannot possibly cease to be. That is a description of God.
  4. Fourth, there must also be a first cause of perfection or goodness or value. We rank things as more or less perfect or good or valuable. Unless this ranking is false and meaningless, unless souls don't really have any more perfection than slugs, there must be a real standard of perfection to make such a hierarchy possible, for a thing is ranked higher on the hierarchy of perfection only insofar as it is closer to the standard, the ideal, the most perfect. Unless there is a most-perfect being to be that real standard of perfection, all our value judgments are meaningless and impossible. Such a most-perfect being, or real ideal standard of perfection, is another description of God. (SOURCE)
There have been different attempts to refute this argument. At best, some say, it proves just a creator of some vague description, without any connection to Christianity (or any other known religion). The argument could also be made that it contradicts itself by saying that everything needs a cause, then breaks this rule by making an exception for God. it also assumes that everything actually needed to have a cause. (SOURCE)

So, does this argument really hold up? Is it a valid argument for God (or a creator/deity/etc)?

There is no actual beginning. There is no first cause or second cause. These are just concepts we think ought to exist.

The universe I see is in a continual process of change. Changing from one thing to another. Whatever happens, something will happen after that. Whatever came before had something else exist before it.

Time does not exist. Time is just a concept of a past, present and a future. What exists is change. The reality we experience rides on this wave of change by the universe. If you are willing to consider God is eternal, why not consider the possibility of the universe being eternal as well?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If you are willing to consider God is eternal, why not consider the possibility of the universe being eternal as well?
..because it isn't :D
The universe is expanding, and can be shown that it started as a singularity.

Most certainly, we are not eternal from a physical point of view.
We are born and die.
That is the nature of this physical universe.
It is temporary, and exists for a purpose.

Having said that, all sorts of different universes may well exist, that are not accessible to us, right now.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
..because it isn't :D
The universe is expanding, and can be shown that it started as a singularity.

Most certainly, we are not eternal from a physical point of view.
We are born and die.
That is the nature of this physical universe.
It is temporary, and exists for a purpose.

Birth and dead are arbitrary points in our own lives. You came from a seed and an egg from your mother and father which came from a seed and an egg from their parents. You are a continuation of your ancestors.

Having said that, all sorts of different universes may well exist, that are not accessible to us, right now.

There is plenty of this universe which is not accessible to us without the need to imagine the existence of others.

Even the singularity is the universe changing from one thing in to another. Science cannot validate the moment of the singularity or whether anything came before it. That doesn't mean nothing did.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
A reality based multiverse could be eternal without a beginning cause. All life there could have evolved from the earliest single-celled living organism having been formed by the enclosure of naturally occurring self-replicating R.N.A. strands and associated organic molecules within a naturally self-assembling membrane consisting of lipids. Right?

So then why do we need to invoke the kind of "posthuman technologically super advanced civilization" as the creators of humanity when this would explain it just as well?
 

Suave

Simulated character
So then why do we need to invoke the kind of "posthuman technologically super advanced civilization" as the creators of humanity when this would explain it just as well?

As a point of reference and perspective, Simulated universe or base reality.?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The human study look at the human consciousness was a bible human teaching.

Think about what a human thinks they identify as a human thinking.

Then you can quote your thesis of philosophy fake.

A human does exist first in all natural bodies. Hence human law said by bible book shut no lying allowed

As human lying is innate as the destroyer human mentality. No matter who or what human title you own.

So nothing in human thesis is empty space first on earth looking out of its heavens.

Then you say nothing comes into being through the atmospheric vacuum space void. However science states burning gas or radiating mass gets sucked away from earth.

Is what some theists discussed.

To claim how an image of man came about to be seen in clouds that never before expressed image.

Why image was introduced into clouds.

Changed the state clouds.

Clouds were a topic in science a function protecting ground life.

So it owned a known scientific study thesis causes of earth heavens in attack.

Was how it was explained.

As clouds existed due to hot cold change.

Gases burning is the hot state. Ice was the cooling state.

The saviour.

Ice owns no image it was just frozen water the saviour.

Men of science proved man with machine introduced an artificial atmospheric change. And discussed it as a bible science topic.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Ponder this analogy:

P1. Everything that began to exist has a cause.
P2. Lightning begins to exist.
C: Lightning has a cause.
Def: I call this cause "Zeus".
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I can claim it is possible if I have REASON to believe it is possible.

Well then one can claim literally anything, the moon is made of cheese.

There is no way to procure objective evidence of what happened billions of years ago so all we can do is surmise.

What? What do think the big bang theory is exactly if not objective evidence of an event that took place billions of years ago?

I am not the one who started this thread because I don't really think it matters what happened in the past. I live fully in the present looking towards the future.

Is that why you're making sweeping unevidenced claims about what happened prior to Planck time, when the entire scientific world doesn't know?

Humanity is facing so many problems in the present and that is what I think people should be focusing on.

Well they're not mutually exclusive, and studying the past can undoubtedly help us, fighting and evidencing climate change for instance, is undoubtedly aided by accurate evidence of historical climate change, and its effects.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
What? What do think the big bang theory is exactly if not objective evidence of an event that took place billions of years ago?
Yes, but it is interesting what "billions of years" actually represents.
I assume you mean measured in our frame of reference, and even then, as the universe is expanding, one can't rule out that time is a logrithmic phenomena, and expands in a similar way to space.

The only reason that we consider time non-expansionary, is because we have defined it as such :)
How "long" is a piece of string?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Yes, but it is interesting what "billions of years" actually represents.
I assume you mean measured in our frame of reference, and even then, as the universe is expanding, one can't rule out that time is a logrithmic phenomena, and expands in a similar way to space.

The only reason that we consider time non-expansionary, is because we have defined it as such :)
How "long" is a piece of string?
That has no relevance to the TB's claim to know what happened prior to Planck time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well then one can claim literally anything, the moon is made of cheese.
That’s right, but we know that the moon is not made of green cheese so we can laugh off such claimants. By contrast, you do not know that what I am claiming is not true.
What? What do think the big bang theory is exactly if not objective evidence of an event that took place billions of years ago?
That might be true, but it does not logically follow that we can know what happened BEFORE the Big Bang, and that was what I was referring to.
Is that why you're making sweeping unevidenced claims about what happened prior to Planck time, when the entire scientific world doesn't know?
Nope, I stated my belief that Creation has always existed because I was answering a post from @Tiberius.
Well they're not mutually exclusive, and studying the past can undoubtedly help us, fighting and evidencing climate change for instance, is undoubtedly aided by accurate evidence of historical climate change, and its effects.
I think it is okay to study the past as long as we do not become mired in the past and lose sight of the present and the future. Looking at patterns of history can be useful as a way to avoid making the same mistakes and looking at scientific facts such as patterns of climate change can be useful.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nothing can categorically prove that a Creator exists.
There is no need for such a proof.

Everybody is quite capable of making their own conclusions.
I have made mine.
It is quite obvious to me that the world is not here without a cause.
..and that cause is not a flippant one.

"Oh look. Human beings just happen to be here, and there is no reason for it other than a process of evolution that also just happens to be."

Yeah .. right :rolleyes:
That's an argument from personal incredulity which is a logical fallacy.

Also, it doesn't address my point that the first cause argument doesn't get us to any God(s).
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
That’s right, but we know that the moon is not made of green cheese so we can laugh off such claimants. By contrast, you do not know that what I am claiming is not true.

No it is made of cheese, it changes when humans examine it. The cheese moon cannot be tested...
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
.. it doesn't address my point that the first cause argument doesn't get us to any God(s).
Why don't you tell us why?

It has several known logical fallacies, an innate contradiction, you can't argue something into existence, there is no objective evidence the big bang needed an external cause, there is no objective evidence such a cause need be a deity as that is pure assumption, from archaic superstitions, the big bang is a recent discovery, and religions now making claims about it have existed for millennia in ignorance of it etc etc etc...
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It has several known logical fallacies, an innate contradiction, you can't argue something into existence, there is no objective evidence the big bang needed an external cause, there is no objective evidence such a cause need be a deity as that is pure assumption, from archaic superstitions, the big bang is a recent discovery, and religions now making claims about it have existed for millennia in ignorance of it etc etc etc...

Well, there is no evidence for a singularity. The evidence stops before we get to what some people consider the "start"; i.e. the singularity.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Why don't you tell us why?
I could just as easily insert "universe farting pixies" into it and there, I've now "proven" that the first cause was universe farting pixies.

Also, even if it we knew it to be true that there was at least one event prior to the universe coming into existence, that event could be absolutely anything at all, the first cause argument doesn't point us toward God(s), and it definitely doesn't point to any specific God(s). There's no justification to call that thing "God." And, even if you could show it was a God, you'd still have a lot of work ahead of you to show it's the specific God(s) you believe in. Also, we'd still have no explanation as to what mechanism God(s) used to create/cause the universe to come into existence.

The main problem with it though, is that it claims there can be no infinite regress, but then the God(s) that is inserted into the equation is posited to be eternal.
 
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