Is the following atheist tactic good sportsmanship or not?

[Skwim]

I'm not confusing myth with parable. I'm well aware of the distinctions. I disagree with your take. Myth is more than simple "window dressing, for the simple reality that we are more than our constituent parts; our wold is more than its constituent facts. Even scientists realize this.

And, of course, that's not what I said. I said:

"Of course as a fiction, myth may form part of an ideology, but in an ideology already understood its mythic fiction is nothing more than window dressing."
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[Acim]

The billboard calls out a ridiculous belief for being ridiculous. It doesn't say that religious people shouldn't speak; so far, the only person I see saying that anyone shouldn't speak is you.

I don't see it calling out belief as ridiculous.

I had to reference it again to see how you could possibly get this, and (to my surprise) had the opposite reaction.

> You KNOW it's a Myth.
(Okay, so story of Jesus' birth is a Myth (with a capital M, which is both trivial, but weird the billboard does this).
> This Season, Celebrate REASON
(Which without being specific, and is within context of Myth (with a capital M) could be applied to celebrating reasonableness within the Myth. IOW, supporting certain religious beliefs.)

I realize many self identified atheists will categorically disagree with this take, but it is really as close, for me, as claiming (falsely) that the ad is saying religious belief is ridiculous. I'm at least sticking with the words that are stated, rather than flying off in fanciful interpretation of implication and unfounded analysis.

The billboard doesn't dismiss myth; it just calls the Nativity story one. I think the billboard generated as much offense as it did because *Christians* dismiss myth. They were the ones who interpreted "it's a myth" as "it's worthless".

That's a plausible take. I think the one that feels more spot on, and will be what I anticipate as counter argument to what I just noted above, is that in "celebrating reason" we could perhaps set aside the myth for awhile (at least during this season). Then, finally, we Americans (aka American atheists) could have a good ol' time doing whatever it is one does (and believes) to be good winter solstice / end of the year fun.

Also, you're asking a whole lot of a billboard. The general rule of thumb for a good billboard design is that it should have no more than seven words. A person should be able to take in and understand the billboard's message with a glance. This doesn't allow a lot of nuanced expression.

Wow, this one fails on the 7 word allowance. Without understanding what "celebrate reason" actually means, AND that it could plausibly apply to the Myth (with a capital M), I'm not sure one can take in the billboard's message with a glance.

But I do think it provokes thought, further understanding, which billboards (with 9+ words), that are 'just okay,' might do.

 

[DreadFish]

Im not really adding anything to the discussion but, in reference to the OP: I dont really get why so many atheists are hell bent on disproving peoples religious beliefs just because it doesnt agree with their own logic.

Actually, a lot of atheists I've observed are pretty much as bad as evangelicals, they are just aggressively advocating a different idea


Note, I have no problem with atheism. It's just another idea afterall...

 

[Spirited]

Im not really adding anything to the discussion but, in reference to the OP: I dont really get why so many atheists are hell bent on disproving peoples religious beliefs just because it doesnt agree with their own logic.

Actually, a lot of atheists I've observed are pretty much as bad as evangelicals, they are just aggressively advocating a different idea


Note, I have no problem with atheism. It's just another idea afterall...

It's because, as Richard Dawkins can often be heard saying, many Atheists argue that it is "enlightening" to not believe in God. They also use the argument of extremism and _____ (fill in the blank with a random religiously influenced war) would disappear if religion was abolished. They claim that it would help pave the way for greater scientific advancement and other such things.

It's all the same, people just want to improve the world as they see it.

 

[DreadFish]

Hmm, I suppose you're right.

We are all influenced by selfish ideas after all, that thats what deludes these things into negativity towards other ideas and such

 

[Photonic]

That's precisely the kind of absolutist thinking that keeps us in the dark ages.

I'm sure you can appreciate the irony in that statement.

 

[YmirGF]

Billboards are tacky, at best. Given that reality, I don't think this will help "the cause".

 

[crocusj]

More like rocks having a message. Unless atheists are able to have something more than 'lack of belief' while 'preaching their word.'

I'm almost sure we decided ages ago that rocks are indeed atheist! And while you fight your endless battle for an atheist canon I will just have to carry on merely not believing and trying to figure out if ideas are good ones on their merits as ideas whilst not giving them undue precedence because of where they come from belief-wise or lack thereof.

 

[Hitchey]

The OP raises an important issue: What limits should atheists themselves place on advertising their position? As an atheist I worry that some tactics put atheists in a bad light. The billboard depicting the Christmas Story is a case in point. It's likely to anger those it's directed at and angry people are less likely to think critically. Better to raise a little cognitive dissonance on a lesser matter and not attack the heart of Christian belief. Many atheists I've talked with have lost their faith over what started as a simple query. I fear that we atheists are sometimes responsible for people hardening their position against us.

 

[fantome profane]

Their "message?" I was unaware that kerygma was part and parcel of the Atheist Movement. My point is this: If atheists want to refute the absolutist claims of fundagelical Xy, they can't do it by spouting another brand of absolutism. My point is that no one group has "all the answers." "Having all the 'answers'" is what's ******* off the atheists about the fundagelicals, so why should they turn around and "have all the the 'answers,'" themselves? It doesn't make sense. If the atheists put forth an effort to open up space for conversation, if they want to push reason, then a more tolerant stance appears to me to be more ... reasonable.

Don’t assume that these people speak for all atheists. I am not talking about the message of “the atheist movement”, I don’t even acknowledge that there is such a thing as “the atheists movement”. We are talking about the message on this billboard. I was simply trying to distinguish whether your objection is to the message or to the way the message is being expressed. Upon further reading of your posts it seems that neither is the case, it seems that you object to something that you imagine that they are thinking.

So when a Christian says that the Nativity is a myth they are simply stating a reasonable position, but when an atheist says the story is a myth they are dismissive and absolute. Very strange.




What do you think about the following ads?

 

[sojourner]

Don’t assume that these people speak for all atheists. I am not talking about the message of “the atheist movement”, I don’t even acknowledge that there is such a thing as “the atheists movement”. We are talking about the message on this billboard. I was simply trying to distinguish whether your objection is to the message or to the way the message is being expressed. Upon further reading of your posts it seems that neither is the case, it seems that you object to something that you imagine that they are thinking.

So when a Christian says that the Nativity is a myth they are simply stating a reasonable position, but when an atheist says the story is a myth they are dismissive and absolute. Very strange.




What do you think about the following ads?

My objection is to both. Haven't we moved past absolutism on either side of the fence here? Can't we all acknowledge that there is merit to all facets of human understanding without disparaging one or the other?

 

[Hitchey]

I dont really get why so many atheists are hell bent on disproving peoples religious beliefs just because it doesnt agree with their own logic.

For the pleasure of the debate. That is probably the main reason I pursue the discussion. Dawkins and others, I think, are engaged because of Evangelical Christian attacks on science. I could propose other motives as well, such as John Lennon's proposition that a world without religion would be a safer place: 'nothing to kill or die for' (after 9/11 that lyric was given new meaning). I don't think there is any doubt that religion is a major force in our world. Some of us who have abandoned it (religion, not the world) think it's a topic worth discussing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My objection is to both. Haven't we moved past absolutism on either side of the fence here? Can't we all acknowledge that there is merit to all facets of human understanding without disparaging one or the other?

What strange definition of "absolutism" are you using that would make it applicable to things like questioning and inquiry?

 

[Photonic]

My objection is to both. Haven't we moved past absolutism on either side of the fence here? Can't we all acknowledge that there is merit to all facets of human understanding without disparaging one or the other?

I know this is going to sound mean. But religion often moves beyond human understanding and postulates something that has no reason and is unnecessary to explain the the world around us any longer. It made sense in the early years of civilization when there was no real methodology to gain an accurate understanding of reality but now that there is... see where I am going here?

 

[fantome profane]

My objection is to both. Haven't we moved past absolutism on either side of the fence here? Can't we all acknowledge that there is merit to all facets of human understanding without disparaging one or the other?

You can, I can. But no, obviously “we all” can’t.

I am an atheist who sees value in Christianity, and value in myth. But my position is that I don’t want to shut down those who think differently than I do. I don’t want to shut out the message of those Christian churches that see it as their mission (literally) to eradicate atheism. And I don’t want to shut out those atheists who believe that humanity would be better off without religion.


(Actually I don’t agree that there is merit to all facets of human understanding. I think there is merit to many widely divergent facets of human understanding, but not all. To say that all facets of human understanding have merit is an absurd and extremely dangerous idea. Some facets of human understanding must be disparaged. )


You think it would be better to promote a more reasonable, less absolute position. Great, let’s get that voice out there as well. That is in addition to, not instead of.


I guess I just like the adversarial process of debate. Let’s have the evangelical Christian make their case, give it their best shot. And give the “evangelical atheists” the same chance. How can you say the “absolutist” position isn’t the correct one unless you have allowed them to make their case? I am not afraid of their either of their arguments, not within a free marketplace of ideas.

Btw, you didn’t give me your opinion on the three pictures in my last post. I would really appreciate hearing what you think of them. Those three were chosen for specific reasons.

 

[Hitchey]

Can't we all acknowledge that there is merit to all facets of human understanding without disparaging one or the other?

I agree with Photonic. Not every proposition rising from human understanding has merit. Why should a faith based proposition deserve any exemption from critical examination?

I hope I haven't misconstrued your meaning.

 

[lunamoth]

"NORTH BERGEN, N.J. (1010 WINS) – An atheist group that has paid for a large billboard outside the Lincoln Tunnel reading “You KNOW it’s a Myth” says it is targeting “closet” atheists as part of its Christmas season campaign.

The large billboard featuring a silhouette of a traditional manger scene is located on the New Jersey side of the tunnel and sponsored by a group called American Atheists.

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The billboard is causing some controversy among those in the Garden State.

“I don’t think it’s any good for the kids. I’ve got a 7-year-old daughter — she believes in Christmas,” one woman told 1010 WINS’ Terry Sheridan."
source


Video News report

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Meh. If it encourages interesting questions from kids I think they are actually helpful.

 

[DreadFish]

For the pleasure of the debate. That is probably the main reason I pursue the discussion. Dawkins and others, I think, are engaged because of Evangelical Christian attacks on science. I could propose other motives as well, such as John Lennon's proposition that a world without religion would be a safer place: 'nothing to kill or die for' (after 9/11 that lyric was given new meaning). I don't think there is any doubt that religion is a major force in our world. Some of us who have abandoned it (religion, not the world) think it's a topic worth discussing.

I can totally respect your point of view here.

Mainly I guess I was referring to those who are very aggressive in their arguments against religion. I've witnessed atheists who only seem to argue about it so they can put down the person who believes in something or display some sort of perceived superiority over the ones who believe in a religion. They also tend to do it in a demeaning way, and that I cannot respect no matter what view one is propagating.

 

[Hitchey]

I can totally respect your point of view here.
Mainly I guess I was referring to those who are very aggressive in their arguments against religion. I've witnessed atheists who ... also tend to do it in a demeaning way, and that I cannot respect no matter what view one is propagating.

I've observed this as well and it really annoys me. It does the atheist position no good when some of us act like schoolyard bullies.

 

[Hitchey]

That wasn't the question, either. The fact that the other "team" is worse doesn't make this any better.

Not on topic but I wanted to comment that I visited your blog (wasn't sure how to leave a comment; maybe I can't). 'The Nightmare Goddess' is a truly beautiful work. Two thumbs up!

More to the point -- I agree with you that atheists should rise above the fray. Why give hardcore Evangelicals more reason to dislike us?