Is the Garden of Eden in South Africa?

[sooda]

What a silly request.

1) Demanding "proof" of anything like this is quite unreasonable, The best anyone can do is offer evidence;

2) Absence of evidence from the bible (that it described a Middle-Eastern scenario) would in no way be evidence in favour of this daft S. African hypothesis;

3) The people who wrote the bible would not have been aware they were living in a particular part of the world we now call "the Middle East":

4) The Genesis account does, in fact, contain features that echo the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, which includes a Garden of the Gods. More here: Garden of the gods (Sumerian paradise) - Wikipedia

5) The whole story is an allegory anyway. No scholar seriously thinks the Garden of Eden ever physically existed, as a literal place. It describes an idealised state of human existence, i.e. before the Fall.

In some ancient mythologies Eden was a garden for the gods. Humans just worked to keep it up. Dilmun was central in trade between Babylon and the Indus Valley with their snake cults.

 

[sooda]

Well, the names might have changed.
Here is a very old map which at least proves that today's "Nile" was called "Tigris" then.
https://lib-dbserver.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/maps-central/1603 ortelius.jpg
So how do you know the names are reliable?

And why are all the animals that were in the Eden Garden not in the Middle East but in Southern Africa?

The Nile was NEVER called the Tigris. The Fertile Crescent is in the river basin of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Then there is the Nile Delta in Egypt. Look at any map.

 

[sooda]

 

[sooda]

 

[calm]

Science does not say mankind is over a million years old so you are wrong there

I was referring to the development of man, which, according to science, began millions of years ago.

Where does the bible say earth or mankind is 5500 years old, verse please

With the help of the genealogies about humanity that are present in the Bible, it is possible for us to determine the age of the man and the earth.

 

[sooda]

And:

AND:

In all cases "God" should once have gone on the Earth, creating the Garden of Eden in the claimed locations?

This surely doesn´t fit the specific story of Creation.

The creation myth, the myth of Gilgamesh is found in Dilmun on clay tablets that predate Genesis and Exodus along with records of trade between Babylon and the Indus Valley.

 

[sooda]

I was referring to the development of man, which, according to science, began millions of years ago.

With the help of the genealogies about humanity that are present in the Bible, it is possible for us to determine the age of the man and the earth.

The OT is fiction and myth borrowed from Babylon, Egypt and the North coast Canaanites. ALL of it is fiction right up thru Joshua. Its epic tales are didactic literature or foundational myths.

 

[ChristineM]

I was referring to the development of man, which, according to science, began millions of years ago.

With the help of the genealogies about humanity that are present in the Bible, it is possible for us to determine the age of the man and the earth.

But what you said was

Science also says that mankind and the earth are over millions of years old. ​

Considering mankind (modern humans) evolved in Africa around 25000 years ago then your statement is incorrect.

However, the homo genus has been developing (from our ape like ancestor) for around 6 or 7 million years. The first mammals from which all mammals evolved around 200 million years ago.

So the bible doesn't actually say 5500 years. Thanks. I believe it was james ussher who first calculated, using genealogies of the bible, the earth was magicked into existence by god one wet afternoon in October 4004 bc making, by the genealogies, the earth to be a few days older than 6023 years.

Pitty that the bible contains contradictory accounts the genealogy of mankind

See my avatar? A fully modern human skull (cro magnon) quite accurately dated to be 22000 years old and the bible doesnt take such factual evidence into account

A quandary dont you think?

 

[sooda]

But what you said was

Science also says that mankind and the earth are over millions of years old. ​

Considering mankind (modern humans) evolved in Africa around 25000 years ago then your statement is incorrect.

However, the homo genus has been developing (from our ape like ancestor) for around 6 or 7 million years. The first mammals from which all mammals evolved around 200 million years ago.

So the bible doesn't actually say 5500 years. Thanks. I believe it was james ussher who first calculated, using genealogies of the bible, the earth was magicked into existence by god one wet afternoon in October 4004 bc making, by the genealogies, the earth to be a few days older than 6023 years.

Pitty that the bible contains contradictory accounts the genealogy of mankind

See my avatar? A fully modern human skull (cro magnon) quite accurately dated to be 22000 years old and the bible doesnt take such factual evidence into account

A quandary dont you think?

Its a game they all play.. first they can't find the fertile crescent on a map and then they immediately skip to genealogies. LOLOLOL

I have seen them do it hundreds of times.

 

[Native]

I have evidence that Garden of Eden is in Calcutta, India.

Eden Gardens - Wikipedia

You are linking to cricket ground in India Read the correct link here.

 

[ChristineM]

Its a game they all play.. first they can't find the fertile crescent on a map and then they immediately skip to genealogies. LOLOLOL

I have seen them do it hundreds of times.

Me too, its very interesting to observe. But 5500 years is a new one on me.

 

[Native]

Get the story into the correct context

The Garden of Eden telling belongs to the very Creation Story itself and the beginning of the ancient known world perception - and of course "god" didn´t and couldn´t have created Eden on an Earth which even wasn´t created in the beginning.

The Garden of Eden is located in the Milky Way center and the galactic arms resembles rivers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was referring to the development of man, which, according to science, began millions of years ago.

With the help of the genealogies about humanity that are present in the Bible, it is possible for us to determine the age of the man and the earth.

Yeah, and that sort of dating shows the Bible to be wrong. Unless you believe in a lying God. If you think that God can and has lied then the Genesis myths may be real.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Get the story into the correct context

The Garden of Eden telling belongs to the very Creation Story itself and the beginning of the ancient known world perception - and of course "god" didn´t and couldn´t have created Eden on an Earth which even wasn´t created in the beginning.

The Garden of Eden is located in the Milky Way center and the galactic arms resembles rivers.

Find me two rivers that spiral around each other and then we can talk.

 

[exchemist]

Well, the names might have changed.
Here is a very old map which at least proves that today's "Nile" was called "Tigris" then.
https://lib-dbserver.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/maps-central/1603 ortelius.jpg
So how do you know the names are reliable?

And why are all the animals that were in the Eden Garden not in the Middle East but in Southern Africa?

Citation required: what animals do you have in mind, that were said by Genesis to be in the Garden of Eden and yet which are known not to have been present in the Fertile Crescent around 5000BC?

- So far as I know, only ONE animal is explicitly mentioned, Man excepted, and that was the serpent. There most certainly are snakes in the Middle East.

- By the way, you have misinterpreted the old map. The Nile river is not called "Tigre" on the map. Tigre is shown as being the name of a region, now called Tigray, which is part of Ethiopia: Tigray Region - Wikipedia

- This name has nothing at all to do with Tigris. It come from the Tigrayan people that live there, who speak Tigrinya.

- Oh and finally, Ethiopia, where Tigray/Tigre is located, is six thousand km from S. Africa.

So it is pretty conclusive that the Garden of Eden myth has nothing at all to do with S. Africa.

 

[Salvador]

Chapter and verse?

" Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence east of Eden. .... Cain was then building a city,.." .( Genesis 4:15-17 )

 

[Salvador]

What do you think about the theory that says that the Garden of Eden is in South Africa?

Interestingly, some old maps inscribe the Southernmost Africa with a ring, from which four rivers emerge.
http://www.myoldmaps.com/late-medieval-maps-1300/240-albertin-de-virga-world/240-de-virga.pdf

What do you think?

Y-Chromosomal Adam lived in Central Africa almost certainly over 230,000 years ago.

Reference: An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

Am J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar 7; 92(3): 454–459.
doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2013.02.002
PMCID: PMC3591855
PMID: 23453668
An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Fernando L. Mendez,1 Thomas Krahn,2 Bonnie Schrack,2 Astrid-Maria Krahn,2 Krishna R. Veeramah,1 August E. Woerner,1 Forka Leypey Mathew Fomine,3 Neil Bradman,4 Mark G. Thomas,5 Tatiana M. Karafet,1 and Michael F. Hammer1,∗

Mitochondrial Eve lived in East Africa almost certainly between 100,000 to 200,000 years ago.

Reference: A revised timescale for human evolution based on ancient mitochondrial genomes

Curr Biol. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2016 Sep 26.

Published in final edited form as:
Curr Biol. 2013 Apr 8; 23(7): 553–559.
Published online 2013 Mar 21. doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2013.02.044
PMCID: PMC5036973
NIHMSID: NIHMS459804
PMID: 23523248
A revised timescale for human evolution based on ancient mitochondrial genomes
Qiaomei Fu,#1,3 Alissa Mittnik,#2 Philip L.F. Johnson,4 Kirsten Bos,2,5 Martina Lari,6 Ruth Bollongino,7 Chengkai Sun,8 Liane Giemsch,9,10 Ralf Schmitz,9 Joachim Burger,7 Anna Maria Ronchitelli,11 Fabio Martini,12 Renata G. Cremonesi,13 Jiří Svoboda,14,15 Peter Bauer,16 David Caramelli,6 Sergi Castellano,1 David Reich,17,18 Svante Pääbo,1 and Johannes Krause2,†

Because Y-Chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve almost certainly lived at least 30,000 years apart as well as hundreds of miles apart, they almost certainly could not have possibly mated together.

 

[Salvador]

Yeah, and that sort of dating shows the Bible to be wrong. Unless you believe in a lying God. If you think that God can and has lied then the Genesis myths may be real.

If there were a deceptive God who were a trickster, then this entity ought to be considered as neither trustworthy nor reliable; there'd be no use for anybody to ascertain such a being's true nature.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Pretty silly - probably invented by Calvinist South African religious wingnuts.

The Genesis story is clearly from, and about, people living in the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East.

No.

The four waters, two are said to be older names for rivers that are far from the Middle East (the Ganges and the Nile). The Bible was composed in the Middle East but it is not just some old Semitic fairytale. It's meant to represent the entire world, just as the Bible is meant as advice for people in China to US to Australia.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And why are all the animals that were in the Eden Garden not in the Middle East but in Southern Africa?

The Bible doesn't say what animals were there.