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Is the God of the OT All-Powerful?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Is the God of the OT all-powerful, all-knowing, good?
if He is not the Almighty....He is not God

I believe He is moving through time with us
He does not know your next move with certainty
even though the general play of Man will have predictable results

He has a sharp picture how all this will end

your fate is still up to you
and pending
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Is the God of the OT all-powerful, all-knowing, good?

We assume this now. I'm curious what passages from the OT support this.

The best way I’ve ever heard it stated is there are three things people want to believe when they believe in God: God is good, God is all knowing, and God is all powerful. But if all three of these things are true, then how can child rapists (and a myriad of other ills in this world) exist?

The answer is, God cannot be all three at once. In order to reconcile your belief in God with what you see in the world around you, you have to pick no more than two. I believe God is all knowing and God is good, but God is not all-powerful.
Is God All-Powerful?

Not sure I understand you. Of course God is all three. Why wouldn’t He be?

These ills you speak of that plague our civilisation I’m given to understand they are caused by us willingly turning away from God, disobeying His Laws and ungodliness which is our choice.

If God teaches to love but we choose to hate, then that’s our fault not God’s. God is All Powerful but He gives us freedom of choice with regards to moral choices. We can choose our ways or His. Today we have chosen our ways so the world is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think if Adam was capable of keeping God's laws then he would not have been an object of mercy. I suppose God's laws are in place so that man may recognize his own inability to live up to the just demands of the law. And therefore become an object of mercy.

I have no recollection of Adam being offered mercy of any kind. You have to be one of Adam's children, born in sin through no fault of your own, to merit the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice.....mercy has to be warranted.....Adam did not warrant mercy....because he was perfect but not sorry. He did not make a mistake because perfect creatures do not make mistakes....they make deliberate, carefully considered choices in full knowledge of the consequences.

Adam did not have a sinful nature, nor did he have any excuse for his disobedience. His actions were willful and deliberate. His wife was deceived but he was not. He had the choice to side with his God instead of his wife but he chose to side with her, knowing the penalty. There were several ways that the Edenic scenario could have played out....but Adam chose the worst case scenario, and we are still paying for it....but not for much longer I feel....we are almost at the end of the lesson.

Can you show me one scripture where Adam and his wife ever showed an once of repentance?....one sacrifice representing remorse for what they did?

If God had simply wanted to demonstrate his power, he could have crushed the rebels out of existence and simply started again......but the devil did not challenge God's power....he challenged his sovereign right to set the limits of human freedom. All the issues raised in Eden had to be settled once and for all, or else what was to prevent it happening all over again? Remember that rebellion did not start among the humans.....it started among the angels. Humans can ruin the planet....angels can ruin the universe. God's Sovereignty had to be vindicated.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I have no recollection of Adam being offered mercy of any kind.

Well, since the wages of sin is death, and Adam sinned, didn't that make him an object of mercy? Sure it did.

if Adam were to be given life it would have to come from a God who was merciful to forgive sins.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well, since the wages of sin is death, and Adam sinned, didn't that make him an object of mercy? Sure it did.

if Adam were to be given life it would have to come from a God who was merciful to forgive sins.

Adam was not told that he would live....he was told that he would die and return to the dust out of which he was made.....please supply scripture that says otherwise.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well, since the wages of sin is death, and Adam sinned, didn't that make him an object of mercy?

The wages of sin comes from the actions of Adam.....he was not prone to sin, like his children, because he was created without defect. His choice to disobey his God merited death.....that's it. Adam will never live again because like the devil he deliberately opposed his God.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Adam was not told that he would live....he was told that he would die and return to the dust out of which he was made.....please supply scripture that says otherwise.

I not arguing that!

Adam sinned. The wages of sin is death. If God does not show mercy to sinners then the just demands of His law require death. I don't know if God's mercy was shown to Adam. I'm simply saying that if Adam were to live God would have to have shown him mercy. Just like He shows mercy to all sinners.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
The wages of sin comes from the actions of Adam.....he was not prone to sin, like his children, because he was created without defect. His choice to disobey his God merited death.....that's it. Adam will never live again because like the devil he deliberately opposed his God.
Adam was created with flesh. The same flesh as the rest of us. And the same flesh that Jesus had. The flesh has its own desires, and that is where sin begins. "Every one is tempted when he is drawn away and entice by his own desires(lust), and when lust has concieved it brings forth sin, and sin, when it is finished brings forth death" James 1

So there you have it. What you gonna do with it.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
There are a lot of hucksters out there trying to sell the idea that Adam's nature changed after he sinned. Or that Adam was not prone to sin. The only problem for them is that the Bible never teaches such nonsense.

Adam sinned in the same way the rest of us sin. By being drawn away and enticed by our OWN desires.

To say that Adam sinned in another way, is to say that Adam's flesh was different than the rest of mankind. Which is a lie!

And that's why the RCC invented a doctrine they call the immaculate conception. something else the Bible never teaches.

You see, if you start with a lie, you need to make up more lies to cover up the first one.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Adam was created with flesh. The same flesh as the rest of us. And the same flesh that Jesus had.

I would disagree with that. "Flesh" when God created it had no sinful tendencies at all. Humans were created in God's image, so how could they possibly be flawed or sinful to begin with? What would have been the point?

Free will was abused first by satan and then by Eve and finally by Adam. All had choices and all made the wrong ones for the wrong reasons. If there was no free will then eating from the TKGE would have been meaningless. The rule would have been meaningless....and the death penalty would have been meaningless.....the rebels were judged by their actions in full knowledge of the consequences.

The flesh has its own desires, and that is where sin begins. "Every one is tempted when he is drawn away and entice by his own desires(lust), and when lust has concieved it brings forth sin, and sin, when it is finished brings forth death" James 1

This applies only to Adam's children, born with a propensity to sin. Adam did not have inherited sin and neither did Jesus. Being "flesh" does not automatically mean we cant help ourselves. The scripture you quoted in James tells us that we are free willed and therefore have choices. If we are tempted, as Eve was and as Adam was when he was faced with losing her, the choices they made meant that they did not dismiss thoughts that were ill conceived.

Sin is a process according to that verse. We have the ability to 'nip it in the bud.' Jesus was tempted too remember? But he dismissed each one with a quote from God's word. Adam and Eve knew God's command well, but it was a lie that made the temptation harder to resist for the woman, who was "thoroughly deceived"....but Adam was not deceived......his choice to eat the fruit was for an entirely different reason. What would have happened if he had refused to eat the fruit from his wife's hand? There would have been an entirely different outcome...but God does not interfere with free will. He just punishes wrong conduct. Every action begins with a thought....that is where it should be stopped.Jesus never let it go beyond a thought....he did not let the devil take it any further. We have that option too....

So there you have it. What you gonna do with it.

I'm going to try to imitate Jesus by rejecting temptations that dishonor my God and his worship.....what about you?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There are a lot of hucksters out there trying to sell the idea that Adam's nature changed after he sinned. Or that Adam was not prone to sin. The only problem for them is that the Bible never teaches such nonsense.

Adam sinned in the same way the rest of us sin. By being drawn away and enticed by our OWN desires.

Romans 5:12...
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

18-19...
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

Does this not explain everything? Adam was not born in sin like his children were....he caused sin to come into the world....Jesus came to undo what Adam did...
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I would disagree with that. "Flesh" when God created it had no sinful tendencies at all. Humans were created in God's image, so how could they possibly be flawed or sinful to begin with? What would have been the point?

I would disagree that being created in God's image refers to not having "sinful tendencies". Man has never lost the image of God.(1 Cor 11:7, Gen 9:6). Does that mean man is not flawed?
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Romans 5:12...
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

18-19...
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

Does this not explain everything? Adam was not born in sin like his children were....he caused sin to come into the world....Jesus came to undo what Adam did...
Right, we ALL sinned in Adam. The death through the sin of Adam has passed to all men because all sinned when Adam sinned. ONE trespass resulted in condemnation to all!
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Some don't understand why they should die because of Adam's sin. The answer is that you have the same nature as Adam when he was created. And that nature is sinful and therefore it cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It must be changed. And that's where resurrection comes in.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Some don't understand why they should die because of Adam's sin.
Some don't understand why they should die because they inherit a genetic disease from their parent.

The answer is that you have the same nature as Adam when he was created.

Sin entered into the world "through" Adam......there was no sin nature before he chose to disobey...with no excuse to do so.
He was created with no sin.....why would God do that to those made in his image and likeness? Everything God made was perfect. Sin came through a decision to abuse free will.

And that nature is sinful and therefore it cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It must be changed. And that's where resurrection comes in.

Apparently God designed us all to fail......this is all his fault then, is it? What a ridiculous scenario....God gives us flaws just so he can either punish us or resurrect us.....? Seriously? :shrug:
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Is the God of the OT all-powerful, all-knowing, good?

We assume this now. I'm curious what passages from the OT support this.

The best way I’ve ever heard it stated is there are three things people want to believe when they believe in God: God is good, God is all knowing, and God is all powerful. But if all three of these things are true, then how can child rapists (and a myriad of other ills in this world) exist?

The answer is, God cannot be all three at once. In order to reconcile your belief in God with what you see in the world around you, you have to pick no more than two. I believe God is all knowing and God is good, but God is not all-powerful.
Is God All-Powerful?

This is a question of theodicy.

Nevertheless, are you saying that God should be intervening in every day crime all over the world in order to be known as "all powerful"?

I hope you understand the question.
 

Nivek001

Member
Is the God of the OT all-powerful, all-knowing, good?

We assume this now. I'm curious what passages from the OT support this.

The best way I’ve ever heard it stated is there are three things people want to believe when they believe in God: God is good, God is all knowing, and God is all powerful. But if all three of these things are true, then how can child rapists (and a myriad of other ills in this world) exist?

The answer is, God cannot be all three at once. In order to reconcile your belief in God with what you see in the world around you, you have to pick no more than two. I believe God is all knowing and God is good, but God is not all-powerful.
Is God All-Powerful?
So you are saying that God cannot be be all three because it’s not moral for God to give us free will to choose and making us accountable for our choices?

It wouldn’t be your fault for you murdering someone because God made you do it by letting you do it? Isn’t that like a parent being charged for a crime their grown child committed even though the parent advised their grown child not to commit the crime?

Also, should the teacher be charged for making a student going through the agony of being tested?

Also, where is it believed that God punishes the innocent for eternity after those innocents also suffered unjustly for the oh so brief time of mortality?

It’s believed by some that God set up this life of mortality as being a test to see if we will do what is right; especially how we treat others. This includes how much we sacrifice of ourselves for the sake of others. How can that kind of testing be done if there are no ordeals to overcome or no choice to do evil available?

How can one know what the light really is without also experiencing darkness? How can one know what happiness really is without also experiencing misery and sadness? How can one know what goodness really is if one never experiences living in a world that also has evil in it?

Sometimes, in order to truly know something you need to experience it and that sometimes mean experiencing the effects of its contrast. That would mean for someone to become truly all knowing that someone also had to go through those experiences. If God wanted us to truly learn in this life it would be hard but it would also be necessary for us to go through those same experiences as well.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Is the God of the OT all-powerful, all-knowing, good?

We assume this now. I'm curious what passages from the OT support this.

The best way I’ve ever heard it stated is there are three things people want to believe when they believe in God: God is good, God is all knowing, and God is all powerful. But if all three of these things are true, then how can child rapists (and a myriad of other ills in this world) exist?

The answer is, God cannot be all three at once. In order to reconcile your belief in God with what you see in the world around you, you have to pick no more than two. I believe God is all knowing and God is good, but God is not all-powerful.
Is God All-Powerful?

Satan was God's CEO in charge of humans and the earth during most of the Old Testament. God was the chairman of the board and Satan was God's CEO in charge of day to day operations. This is inferred from Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law, which was the tree occupied by Satan. The symbolism of Satan in the tree of knowledge, shows a connection between law and Satan. Law, like Satan, is seductive promising so much, yet it fails to deliver as promised due to it's polarizing affect. Law, as was demonstrated by Adam and Eve, can also create temptation and violation of law. Law was buggy but chosen by Satan as his favorite tree.

The tree of life; instinct, was sealed after Adam and Eve ate, since you can't consciously make laws, to exist side-beside with natural instinct, and still keep instinct, natural. Law will alter instinct and make it unnatural. This is why the tree of life was removed, less instinct was perverted.

Law is one size fits all, while instinct is more flexible in terms of each unique scenario for each person when acting on instinct. Law can tell us all to eat at 12 noon, but instinct can tailor eating in a more flexible way, for each person. Death appears because law and Satan are too short sighted. Instinct has walked this way many times over the eons, and has evolved far sightedness.

Satan, although often associated with evil, is not thrown from Heaven until after the death of Jesus. Satan was welcome in heaven up to Revelations. He was the Lord of the Earth in the Old Testament and was often mistaken for God the Father. Nobody can come to the father, except through the son. Law and Satan was not the best way to reach the Father. It was more of a loop in of itself.

The best bible quotes to see this, occur after Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus was approached by Satan. At this time, Satan, as the Lord of the Earth, was still condoned in heaven. He tries to recruit Jesus through various signing bonuses. One such signing bonus was the promise he could have all the wealth and kingdoms of the earth. Jesus never denies Satan had this authority on earth, since he was the CEO. Rather Jesus respectfully refuses the offer.

Had Jesus accepted that offer, he would have become the Messiah, who was anticipated by the Jews; rich, powerful and could subdue all their enemies. By refusing the offer, Jesus became something better. This refusal to satisfy the old prophesies, triggers debate and then conflict in heaven, since Jesus did not follow the script set forth by Satan and law. Instead, Jesus made a move for Satan's job as CEO, to God the Father.

Had Jesus accepted Satan's offer of being the top dog king of all the humans, he would have become the anticipated Messiah of the Old Testament. However, he would also become the assistant to the Lord of the Earth; Satan. But Jesus altered the path of history. Conflict then occurs at the board of Director meeting in Heaven. Satan was strong and found allies in 1/3 of the board, but he is thrown from heaven. Jesus then becomes the new CEO, who sits at the right hand of Power. Nobody can come to the Father, except through his new CEO, son.

The Christian religions, after Revelations, evolve over time, due to the son being CEO. The Old Testament Religions get stuck in a time loop, based on former glory day prophesies under the old CEO, Satan. The conflict between saying God is good and all knowing and then pointing out suffering, is not due to the Chairman of the Board, God, but his CEO, Satan who runs operations in the field for the descendants of Adam and Eve. The new dispensation does not have law but rather is based on faith, which connects us back to instinct and inner voice; tree of life.
 
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Nivek001

Member
Satan was God's CEO in charge of humans and the earth during most of the Old Testament. God was the chairman of the board and Satan was God's CEO in charge of day to day operations. This is inferred from Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law, which was the tree occupied by Satan. The symbolism of Satan in the tree of knowledge, shows a connection between law and Satan. Law, like Satan, is seductive promising so much, yet it fails to deliver as promised due to it's polarizing affect. Law, as was demonstrated by Adam and Eve, can also create temptation and violation of law. Law was buggy but chosen by Satan as his favorite tree.

The tree of life; instinct, was sealed after Adam and Eve ate, since you can't consciously make laws, to exist side-beside with natural instinct, and still keep instinct, natural. Law will alter instinct and make it unnatural. This is why the tree of life was removed, less instinct was perverted.

Law is one size fits all, while instinct is more flexible in terms of each unique scenario for each person when acting on instinct. Law can tell us all to eat at 12 noon, but instinct can tailor eating in a more flexible way, for each person. Death appears because law and Satan are too short sighted. Instinct has walked this way many times over the eons, and has evolved far sightedness.

Satan, although often associated with evil, is not thrown from Heaven until after the death of Jesus. Satan was welcome in heaven up to Revelations. He was the Lord of the Earth in the Old Testament and was often mistaken for God the Father. Nobody can come to the father, except through the son. Law and Satan was not the best way to reach the Father. It was more of a loop in of itself.

The best bible quotes to see this, occur after Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus was approached by Satan. At this time, Satan, as the Lord of the Earth, was still condoned in heaven. He tries to recruit Jesus through various signing bonuses. One such signing bonus was the promise he could have all the wealth and kingdoms of the earth. Jesus never denies Satan had this authority on earth, since he was the CEO. Rather Jesus respectfully refuses the offer.

Had Jesus accepted that offer, he would have become the Messiah, who was anticipated by the Jews; rich, powerful and could subdue all their enemies. By refusing the offer, Jesus became something better. This refusal to satisfy the old prophesies, triggers debate and then conflict in heaven, since Jesus did not follow the script set forth by Satan and law. Instead, Jesus made a move for Satan's job as CEO, to God the Father.

Had Jesus accepted Satan's offer of being the top dog king of all the humans, he would have become the anticipated Messiah of the Old Testament. However, he would also become the assistant to the Lord of the Earth; Satan. But Jesus altered the path of history. Conflict then occurs at the board of Director meeting in Heaven. Satan was strong and found allies in 1/3 of the board, but he is thrown from heaven. Jesus then becomes the new CEO, who sits at the right hand of Power. Nobody can come to the Father, except through his new CEO, son.

The Christian religions, after Revelations, evolve over time, due to the son being CEO. The Old Testament Religions get stuck in a time loop, based on former glory day prophesies under the old CEO, Satan. The conflict between saying God is good and all knowing and then pointing out suffering, is not due to the Chairman of the Board, God, but his CEO, Satan who runs operations in the field for the descendants of Adam and Eve. The new dispensation does not have law but rather is based on faith, which connects us back to instinct and inner voice; tree of life.
Where do you get that the Tree of Knowledge represents a connection between the laws set by God and Satan?
Where scripture says that?

The fruit of Tree of Knowledge was necessary for Eve and Adam to take if they were to get out the stagnation of limbo in which they would be damned by remaining in a state of innocence not knowing any better.

God warned that if they were to eat of the fruit they would surely die, but it was necessary for them to do it anyway and become subject to death for out of their misery they would also learn true happiness.

All it was shown in Genesis was that Satan wanted them to suffer anyways. There is no clear indication that Satan was doing the tempting by God’s request. Otherwise the account would have said so.

It is believed that Satan instead of being called by God to be his CEO Satan was actually let go by God to let Satan do what Satan wanted to do, and what Satan wanted was for humanity to be miserable just like he was.

Satan being let go had its limits and those limits were placed on Satan by God as a curse:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:14 KJV


Also, how was Satan not cast out if Heaven until after the death of Jesus when Satan was tempting Jesus while on Earth during Jesus’s fasting? Also, what would be the point of Satan tempting Jesus if Satan was appointed by God to be his CEO and therefore was commanded by God to tempt Jesus?

Also, the fall of Lucifer was described by Isaiah as already having taken place by his time.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:12 KJV

Isaiah then goes into detail of what will become of Lucifer:


15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Isthis the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; thatopened not the house of his prisoners?
Isaiah 14:15-17 KJV

How is the Law a one size fits all?

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV
 
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LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Some don't understand why they should die because they inherit a genetic disease from their parent.

Maybe you need to catch up on the JW literature. It recognizes that the death Adam brought into the world by his sin comes about through disease.



Sin entered into the world "through" Adam......there was no sin nature before he chose to disobey...with no excuse to do so.
He was created with no sin.....why would God do that to those made in his image and likeness? Everything God made was perfect. Sin came through a decision to abuse free will.

In other words, Adam sinned in a different way than the rest of his kind. And Adam's nature was different before he sinned.

Please provide Scripture that teaches what you do. Where does it tell us Adam's flesh and blood nature became something different after he sinned?

let me help you. It doesn't. In fact, it says the opposite of what you say.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Can you comprehend that? What does Paul say about Adam? He says the opposite of what you say and what your sect teaches..

Adam was made of the dust of the ground and is therefore called THE NATURAL MAN. And as is the earthy(Adam) so too are the rest.
And it is precisely that earthy nature made from dust which is sinful and therefore MUST be changed to a spiritual body like the heavenly body Jesus now has.



Apparently God designed us all to fail......this is all his fault then, is it? What a ridiculous scenario....God gives us flaws just so he can either punish us or resurrect us.....? Seriously? :shrug:

Why do you suppose God gave law to Adam? It is to show man his total inability to live up to the just demands of God's law and to recognize that he is in need of mercy. that's the same reason God gave His laws to the Jews. They were to recognize that the law was unforgiving and that if they were to be saved it would have to be by faith. Like the faith Abraham showed long before God gave the Israelites His laws at Mount Sinai. was Abraham justified by the law? Of course not. Righteousness was imputed to him by faith and not by works of the law.
 
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