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Is the idea of land property sustainable? Is it or will it become obsolete?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Various threads put me on reflection about how seriously some people take the idea that it is possible for human beings to somehow "own" areas of land, or even that there is such a thing as an association between land and people that can last for millennia.

That strikes me as exceedingly odd. The world's population did not reach one billion people until around 1800, and it is now doubling every few decades. At the same time, we are expecting Earth to sustain ever growing levels of personal consumption. And our international relations and much of our general policies seems to make a point of thinking nothing of exploding things with a certain panache and pride whenever possible.

Now, logically, it is simply not possible to expect to have anything resembling a stable society if personal space for each individual keeps getting halved at least once (and soon twice, then even more often) during the lifetime of every generation. We are not collectively exactly well adapted to that. And indeed, for nearly all of our recorded history we have instead chosen to keep the demographic dilemmas manageable by engaging in periodic rituals of pride and prunning, more often known as "war". At times that was made less necessary by famine and disease.

The bottom line is that we have quite a history of knowing how to deal with widespread death, but are nearly clueless about the ways of dealing with stable population levels - and it definitely shows. Even our political models seem to be all but fully incapable of dealing with the massive amounts of people we now have. We are simply too many now for our traditional means of dealing with conflict, disagreement and personal ambitions to fully work anymore. We have lost so much of the privacy and power of decision that former generations used to take for granted that seeking individual traits has become a major motivator, particularly since the 1990s.

Still, the basic human needs are almost unchanged, even if we don't always realize how much harder it can be to fulfill them these days. We still seek recognition, active voice, personal space, security, safety and prestige. More to the point, we have a very strong tendency to basically freak out when denied the hope of attaining them all.

Don't you think that many of the most persistent or difficult troubles that our societies face these days are ultimately sustained by the considerable confusion and uncertainties that this rapid and misunderstood demographical change caused? We are still attempting to rely on values, strategies and priorities established along many generations that simply did not have need nor capability to deal with this situation as it is.

Survival of oneself and offspring used to be a fairly high priority just a few centuries ago. Now our challenges are more symbolic and abstract in nature, and so is our behavior - except that the demographical realities have become more challenging and just as indispensable as they ever were. To ever more worrisome levels we keep hoping to succeed in "third-partying" the weight lifting of our lifestyles and end up complaining that "things" just don't go our way, perhaps without realizing that we are in effect turning our back to those same "things" and hoping for no good reason that they will simply settle in a way that is more palatable, perhaps of their own accord.

In essence, I suspect that we are collectively at least a bit deluded into expecting reality to bend to our convenience instead of accepting that it is our need and duty to bend ourselves in order to enable our goals into existence. That combination of increasing levels of demographic challenge (of ever greater complexity), less personal confort, more development of false "needs" and additional difficulty at attaining participation on the decisions that affect our present and our future seems to be a recipe for eventual disaster to me.
 

niceguy

Active Member
We cannot go on letting a few hog the resources that the many need. We really should abolish private ownership of the worlds resources thou the right to use a given resource could remain with those that use it, as long as they do it in a responsible way. Thus we should not drive the farmers of "their" land they would keep the right to continue support them self this way. Sometimes thou we will have no choice but, forcibly if needed stop the use of some resources, even if doing so will in the short run rob some people of their income. Massive overfishing are done all over the world and it must stop. Unemployment among fishermen are no excuse to keep doing it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Frubaled you Luis. Very thought provoking post. I've been short of time lately, so I haven't responded yet. But I will soon.

The light response is disappointing. I think you are describing the biggest challenge facing humanity.

Tom
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
No, I don't think that the idea of land ownership is sustainable. As it stands right now, millions go without access to food, clean water, and basic shelter while others generate obscene amounts of wealth through hording and controlling resources. If we are going to survive and progress as a species, we are going to have to come to the realization that we need to work together and see our resources as communal rather than private.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Mines posted and paid for. :D

funny-no-trespassing-signs-1.jpg
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The world's population did not reach one billion people until around 1800, and it is now doubling every few decades. At the same time, we are expecting Earth to sustain ever growing levels of personal consumption. And our international relations and much of our general policies seems to make a point of thinking nothing of exploding things with a certain panache and pride whenever possible.

I believe this paragraph seriously underestimates the severity of the problems. Not only is the population continuing to explode, but a lot of other things are changing as well.

For all of human history the vast majority were poor, ignorant, and disorganized. They didn't even aspire to much more than food, shelter and seeing their children start families. Unless they were born to the aristocracy they had no realistic hope of more, generally. Even if they wanted to rebel against the fundamental injustice, access to weapons and organization was strictly controlled by the state and clergy.

Much has changed since the mid-20th century and not just the tripling of the worlds poor. Access to information and organization in this internet age is a game changer. Major states like India and China are fully intending to improve the lot of their billions of people. The poor of the world know what they are missing and are no longer willing to accept poverty and powerlessness as their lot. And they are not inclined to slow down their improvements because the planet has been screwed up and abused by the rich Westerners. China, for instance, sees no reason not to build cheap coal fired power plants for their people when the USA is still pumping out 5 or 6 times the per capita emissions of green house gases.

Then there is the availability of weapons. Compared with what was available to previous generations the ability to cause destruction is huge. Not just the nuclear weapons, but the wide availability of automatic guns, explosives, as well as weaponizing other things like passenger jets. The human ability to slaughter each other has mushroomed as well.

Some what we've got is multiple billions of poor people, able to organize, heavily armed, and uninclined to just accept their lot. A great deal more than "property rights" is going to have to change to head off the catastrophe looming in our near future.

I know I sound pessimistic, but I honestly don't think we have what it takes to avoid it. The rich will go to war for their privileges and the poor will fight like they have nothing to lose.

Tom
 
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Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
What about all the hard work and sacrifice people have made to have what they have?

Now we are going to just give it away to people who have done nothing?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What about all the hard work and sacrifice people have made to have what they have?

For all that it must be respected, it can't very well change some basic facts about the size of the planet and the demands people have come to take for granted.

Now we are going to just give it away to people who have done nothing?

That is not a level of analysis that helps in understanding the situation IMO. Even slackers do a lot of things, including cause social unrest and criminality.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What we need is more folks earning what they have not taking it away from others

Indeed. And I fear the degree to which that is necessary goes far beyond what most people know how to accept, perhaps even imagine. Letting go of fossil fuels for good and giving up on the current extremes of wealth accumulation is just a tiny part of it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
What about all the hard work and sacrifice people have made to have what they have?

Now we are going to just give it away to people who have done nothing?

Of course, I don't really know you. Perhaps you were born to a single mom in the slums of Mexico City.

If you had the advantages available to the poorest USonian, however, your success is due to a lot more than hard work and sacrifice. Our foreign policy has been supporting the privileges of the USA at the expense of the rest of the world since before there even was a USA.

Tom
 
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