Is the Messiah(pbuh) required religious war and build Temple to invite him ?

[Godobeyer]

Levite wrote that he dislikes Evangelists. That he dislikes their theology.

What else do you want? If you don't understand it take up a proper English course or get someone to explain it to you.
Obviously you don't believe us.

as i understand you agree with their support , which end with war with Muslims ?


can i quote from your post in that thread and paste it here ,you explain to us your opinion again ?

I am already ask the permission of Levite to post his reply in Jewish DIR here to explain.

i am waiting his permission .

 

[Debater Slayer]

accuatly i have friend had better English than me , i show him your reply in Opinion on Christian Zionism? | ReligiousForums.com

He told me "they switching words" .

is there a problem, IF you let me repost your reply in that thread ? or post your reply in that thread here ?

I have never done something like this before, but I find the misunderstanding happening here quite painful and so am going to try to explain to you in relatively simple words what the post meant (and Levite is free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course).

I assume this is the quote you're talking about:

While in theory I am always glad when non-Jews find their way clear to support Jews living in a Jewish homeland in the ancestral territory of the Jewish People, I find that many Christian Zionist movements have unpleasant ulterior theological motivations.

The one I run into quite a bit is the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jewish exiles to the holy land because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims, in which the bulk of both will be wiped out, signifying the impending return of Jesus and the ascension of Christianity to world domination. They don't usually phrase it quite so bluntly, but that's what it boils down to.

I have also occasionally run into the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jews to the holy land because that is where they are prophesized to gather when Jesus returns to judge them and throw them all into Hell. And the notion that Christians should support the return of the Jews to the holy land because it is only when they return to their homeland and are unable to find peace there that "they will truly understand their need for the salvation of Jesus."

To be fair, I do know some very nice Christians-- mostly ministers and priests who are collegial acquaintances of mine-- who are Zionist without apparent ulterior motive. They say they support the right of the State of Israel to exist because it's due justice to the Jewish People, and because there needs to be a Jewish State that can be an ultimate refuge for the Jewish People. And some of them acknowledge they support Israel in part because they understand that Christian persecution of Jews, historically, is in part responsible for the acute need of the Jews for a safe land of their own.

These kinds of Christian Zionists I have absolutely no problem with, and am grateful for their support. Unfortunately, though, they seem to be in the minority, and the majority of Christian Zionists seem...sketchy, at best.

Now, let's discuss the parts I highlighted above (without discussing anything about the member himself, as that would be against the rules).

The bolded parts explain one of the notions (i.e., ideas) that many Christian Zionist movements have, which is this:

Christians must support the return of the Jewish exiles to the holy land because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims, in which the bulk of both will be wiped out, signifying the impending return of Jesus and the ascension of Christianity to world domination. They don't usually phrase it quite so bluntly, but that's what it boils down to.

So the post is just an explanation of a notion/idea that other people have. You don't have to agree with an idea to explain it to someone else. For example, you could try to explain what Catholics believe without being a Catholic yourself. That's basically what the post did there: it just contained an explanation of an idea that Christian Zionists have; it's one of their ideas, not the idea of any Jewish member here. Some Christian Zionists believe that Jews will start an apocalyptic war with Muslims. No Jewish member I know here believes that.

Does that help clarify what the post was intended for?

 

[RabbiO]

At the risk of seeming to be unnecessarily unkind, and repeating myself from another thread -

From the marvelous Marx Brothers film, "Duck Soup" comes this classic line delivered by Groucho Marx during a trial scene concerning the character played by his brother Chico - "Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot."

 

[Godobeyer]

thanks for DS for post the Quote , may Levite will make us understand more by explain to us these points highlighted too




1- While in theory I am always glad when non-Jews find their way clear to support Jews ...etc

2- I find that many Christian Zionist movements have unpleasant ulterior theological motivations.

3- The one I run into quite a bit is the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jewish ...because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims,etc etc

4- I have also occasionally run into the notion that Christians must support ...because ....etc

5- To be fair, I do know some very nice Christians-- mostly ministers and priests who are collegial acquaintances of mine-- who are Zionist without apparent ulterior motive

6- These kinds of Christian Zionists I have absolutely no problem with

7- and am grateful for their support.

 

[Debater Slayer]

thanks for DS for post the Quote , may Levite will make us understand more by explain to us these points highlighted too




1- While in theory I am always glad when non-Jews find their way clear to support Jews ...etc

2- I find that many Christian Zionist movements have unpleasant ulterior theological motivations.

3- The one I run into quite a bit is the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jewish ...because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims,etc etc

4- I have also occasionally run into the notion that Christians must support ...because ....etc

5- To be fair, I do know some very nice Christians-- mostly ministers and priests who are collegial acquaintances of mine-- who are Zionist without apparent ulterior motive

6- These kinds of Christian Zionists I have absolutely no problem with

7- and am grateful for their support.

Please note that you have to quote the entire post to make sure it is not taken out of context. Furthermore, quoting it for clarification or friendly discussion (like in a DIR) is different from quoting it for debate.

What do you have a problem understanding in the post? I don't mind explaining it further if need be, since I think the language barrier is causing a huge misunderstanding in this case.

 

[Pastek]

I cant believe that some people their opinion changed depend the DIR
IF i am in my DIR member i had opinion , IF i am in other DIR , I jet other opinion !!! and plus I reject my DIR member opinion !!!! lol

Non, tu l'as mal compris.
Il a dit qu'il avait un problème avec les chrétiens sionnistes qui pensent ceci et celà, puis il a ennoncé les différents points avec lesquels il est en désaccord justement avec certains chrétiens sionnistes.
Or toi tu as cru que c'était ce que lui pensait, erreur ... Il y'a donc un problème de compréhension de ta part, il n'a absolument pas changé de version entre temps.

 

[pearl]

I was saying that this is apparently what some Christian Zionists believe. It is not what Jews believe. It is not what I believe. It is not a belief I approve of.

I think the only 'approval' would come from fundamentalists who believe in the so-called rapture at which time all of the Jews will
have returned and either convert or be destroyed. Supposedly these events will precede Jesus return. It is a distortion of Rev.

 

[Flankerl]

Its actually quite easy to understand what he's going on about.

Levite used positive words "I am always glad" about something (here the support of non-Jews) which Godobeyer then mistakes for everything else Levite wrote.

Furthermore he fails to realise that Levite wrote he has no Problem with the support Israel gets from non-Evangelical Christians who don't want to turn the Middle East into a wonderland of Death.


I've quite frankly already gotten used to it because this kind of stuff is quite common.

 

[rosends]

thanks for DS for post the Quote , may Levite will make us understand more by explain to us these points highlighted too




1- While in theory I am always glad when non-Jews find their way clear to support Jews ...etc

Levite likes it when people support Jews. That is his feeling. He owns it.

2- I find that many Christian Zionist movements have unpleasant ulterior theological motivations.

Levitefinds that many OTHERS (i.e. Christian Zionists) have other motivations. Note, HE does not have those motivations; he finds them in OTHERS.

3- The one I run into quite a bit is the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jewish ...because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims,etc etc

The one idea which Levite runs into as presented by those OTHERS is...

4- I have also occasionally run into the notion that Christians must support ...because ....etc

Levite has also run into this idea which is also presented by OTHERS. "Run into" means encounter from an external source. This means that this positions are NOT his, but belong to someone ELSE.

5- To be fair, I do know some very nice Christians-- mostly ministers and priests who are collegial acquaintances of mine-- who are Zionist without apparent ulterior motive

Though Levite has seen these other motives in the thinking of some OTHERS, there are non-Jews who don't put forward this idea. Again, this separates the "non-Levite" group into 2 camps, but the position of each is NOT LEVITE'S.

6- These kinds of Christian Zionists I have absolutely no problem with

7- and am grateful for their support.

The second group of "non-Levite" who DON'T put forward the notion of apocalyptic war are the ones Levite appreciates.

The logical flow is Item one presents a supposition that support from non Jews is good. Items 2, 3 and 4 show that some of this support is bad so the original supposition is flawed. Items 5, 6 and 7 show that 2, 3 and 4 represent only part of the external population, and the original supposition is true for a smaller grouping, and that grouping is the one that is agreed with.

 

[Tarheeler]

That this is being gone over yet again is truly ridiculous.

 

[Levite]

I am already ask the permission of Levite to post his reply in Jewish DIR here to explain.

i am waiting his permission .

Let me save you the trouble.

While in theory I am always glad when non-Jews find their way clear to support Jews living in a Jewish homeland in the ancestral territory of the Jewish People, I find that many Christian Zionist movements have unpleasant ulterior theological motivations.

The blue text means that, in the absence of anything problematic, I am glad when non-Jews support Israel. The red text modifies that statement by making it clear that I see problems with many Christian Zionist movements because of theologies they have that I do not like or agree with.

The one I run into quite a bit is the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jewish exiles to the holy land because when enough of them get there, they will start an apocalyptic war with the Muslims, in which the bulk of both will be wiped out, signifying the impending return of Jesus and the ascension of Christianity to world domination. They don't usually phrase it quite so bluntly, but that's what it boils down to.

I have also occasionally run into the notion that Christians must support the return of the Jews to the holy land because that is where they are prophesized to gather when Jesus returns to judge them and throw them all into Hell. And the notion that Christians should support the return of the Jews to the holy land because it is only when they return to their homeland and are unable to find peace there that "they will truly understand their need for the salvation of Jesus."

In the above paragraphs I go on to explain what the theologies are that are held by the Christian Zionists with whom I have problems. In other words, everything in these two paragraphs are things I do not agree with. Things I do not approve of.

To be fair, I do know some very nice Christians-- mostly ministers and priests who are collegial acquaintances of mine-- who are Zionist without apparent ulterior motive. They say they support the right of the State of Israel to exist because it's due justice to the Jewish People, and because there needs to be a Jewish State that can be an ultimate refuge for the Jewish People. And some of them acknowledge they support Israel in part because they understand that Christian persecution of Jews, historically, is in part responsible for the acute need of the Jews for a safe land of their own.

In the above paragraph, I make a distinction. As opposed to the Christian Zionists I mentioned at first, who believe the things I do not agree with, I have also found a few Christian Zionists who don't believe those things the first group of Christian Zionists believe. These Christians don't believe the theologies I think are so bad. Instead, they believe things that are not so bad, because they don't involve apocalyptic wars, Hell, or Jews converting to Christianity. Those are things they don't believe, which is part of why I don't have a problem with them.

These kinds of Christian Zionists I have absolutely no problem with, and am grateful for their support.

The ones I have no problem with are the second kind of Christian Zionists. The ones that don't believe all the bad theologies.

Unfortunately, though, they seem to be in the minority, and the majority of Christian Zionists seem...sketchy, at best.

Here am I noting with regret that the second kind of Christian Zionists-- the kind who don't believe the bad theologies-- are few. But the first kind of Christian Zionists-- the kind who do believe the bad theologies that I don't agree with and don't like-- are many.

 

[columbus]

That this is being gone over yet again is truly ridiculous.

I disagree. Levites post was a nuanced response to a complicated hot button issue. Well done. But not necessarily clear to a Muslim Algerian. I expect that Pastek fixed the problem by explaining it simply in French.

Tom

 

[apophenia]

Friend Godobeyer,

Pastek has given you the absolutely correct answer.

I have read Levite's post. He is not saying what you thought he was saying - just the opposite in fact.

Sometimes we get it wrong. I make errors, you make errors - it is human to make errors. This time you have misunderstood, which surprises me because you have good English skills.

It is best if you apologise to Levite. I'm sure he will understand and forgive you for this misunderstanding if you do.

I say this with warmest regards for you.

 

[Tarheeler]

I disagree. Levites post was a nuanced response to a complicated hot button issue. Well done. But not necessarily clear to a Muslim Algerian. I expect that Pastek fixed the problem by explaining it simply in French.

Tom

My exasperation goes far beyond this single incident.

 

[dantech]

Pastek explained it in french, I wonder if Godobeyer at least understood that. He explained it pretty clearly, as did every other poster on this thread.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

1. the Jewish-Christian faith known.
Jews (not)believe in Christ
2. this we know well
3. Christian believes in the Torah
4. Christian admits in Jews
5. Christian respects the Jewish faith
6. the fundamental Commandments in Christian teachings of Moses
7. the Jewish State
8. it's a historical fact
9. the right of Jews to have their independent State
10. the Jews in Palestine from earliest history
11. help of Christians to Jews is humanitarian assistance
12. it's a moral and humanitarian

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Thisisthe Christian faith
1. Jews and his mother Mary were originally
2. Palestine was under Roman colonization
The reign ofChrist
3. There was a Jewish political movements
Trying toget rid ofRomancolonization
And their name (Maccabees)
Jesusdid not claimto belongtothepolitical movements
4. disciples of the Jews
5. Jerusalem city of peace
Kingdom of Daoud Suleiman
Werein Palestine
6. If you are looking for Jews in Islam
You must read the following book (Jews in the Qur'an and Sunnah)
The name of the author(Sayed Tantawi)
Publications ofBeirut
7. any of the Qur'an
I will writesomewordsinArabiclanguage
8. Palestinians are not Arabs
9. history says that the Palestinians have emigrated to Palestine
10. the alghlstinion Arabs after the Muslim occupation in Palestine
11. the night journey and Ascension Islamic myth
12. Al-Aqsa Mosque is not exhaustive in Muhammad's time
Theruins of theTempleof Jerusalem
13. the Romans destroyed the Temple in the year 70 a.d.
14. build church replaced this structure
After theMuslim occupationbecamea catchallexplainIslamicdome of the rock
Is thisinformationhelpful to you

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Daoud was the sponsor of sheep
Daoud was killed Goliath with a stone
And after he became King Daoud
The eventsofthe Bible
The conflict in Palestinea historicalconflict
But-
Ifthe fact remains
1. the Jews have the right to life and to live in peace in Palestine?
2. Christian support this historic right
3. because support is the reason and logic
4. the Christian religion
No (reason)to hate

 

[Godobeyer]

Please note that you have to quote the entire post to make sure it is not taken out of context. Furthermore, quoting it for clarification or friendly discussion (like in a DIR) is different from quoting it for debate.

What do you have a problem understanding in the post? I don't mind explaining it further if need be, since I think the language barrier is causing a huge misunderstanding in this case.

thanks for this note

let me explian

I just want to collect his personal statement which " I " , i don't mean to misqoute his post . if you notice that i collect them as points .

as i understand Levite disagree with some Christians zionists in some issue , and agree with them in other issues .

or Levite agree with Christians zionistes more than he disagree with them , is i am correct ?

 

[Godobeyer]

5. Christian respects the Jewish faith

and mahasn ebn sawresho said before that he hate Jewish faith , and instead of apologize to Jews , he apologize to me !!! don't you ?