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Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Quran was written 600, yes SIX HUNDRED, years after Jesus. Why would anyone use it as a historical document?

No one asked anyone to. Maybe if you understand the question without the theological background of your faith and the wish to negate theology of another you will understand the question.

Even if the Quran is written today, the question is still valid. If I quoted another book written yesterday and picked these points which are the only historical points quoted in the book about a man who lived 2000 years ago, the question is still valid.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I simply didn't wish to deviate into some other discussion but I don't if you are aware of the Mishneh Torah account which is supposedly taken out later where Maimonides states that if the Messiah is killed he is no messiah.
'Course I'm aware. I'm impressed that you are too. :)
Maimonides also discusses Jesus non-messianism in one of his famous letters, the Iggeret Teiman.
He goes on to say something about Jesus being sentenced to death by the court assuming he imagined himself to be the Messiah.
Are you sure that's what he says? I'll get back to you on that.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It seems pretty clear to me?

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Really? You see, if its so clear to you, can you tell me about what I said? Just a cut and paste form Quran.com is invalid. Try to be more sophisticated and practice a tad bit of humility. Just for you to read my response, here you go I will cut and paste my response again. Read it again, and provide an objective answer. Not just a cut and paste which is not a translation but someones interpretation. The Quran text does not say "but [another] was made to resemble him to them.".

Here is the cut and paste.

Okay. So you believe Jesus was crucified and is a historical fact. Thats fine.

But you see, the Qur'an does not really say that Jesus was never crucified by the Romans. It negates the claim of the ahlil kithab. Also, you seem to be not using historical sources but the Bible itself. Well, it may very well be historical because of course it is a scholarly consensus based on the probability that the Romans crucified him like they did to all the other people who claimed to be a messiah. Thats a probability. But you can never eve be 100% sure. No way.

Also, you should know that the Quranic narration about the crucifixion is called "muthadabih" or "Shabaha" which means its "dual". It appeared like that. They were ambiguous about it. They thought they killed him. They thought, they assumed.

So don't be so sure brother. If you need to ask something, just ask.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
'Course I'm aware. I'm impressed that you are too. :)
Maimonides also discusses Jesus non-messianism in one of his famous letters, the Iggeret Teiman.

Are you sure that's what he says? I'll get back to you on that.

Which version of the repetition are you using?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I thought you were aware of this 'his blood be upon us' nonsense? It's as good as the same thing imo.

Only in Matthew that verse to be fair and in context, it refers simply to the "rent-a-mob" crowd gathered there by the leadership and under their control. The disciples themselves were Jewish and most Jews of the period weren't in the crowd (because they were in other parts of Jerusalem near/on Pesach and had far more interesting things to be doing with their day than watching some poor bloke getting brutally tortured and killed by the occupying powers and their client Judean leadership, or indeed lived further afield in Judea, Galilee and the worldwide diaspora).

Luke also describes other people even in the crowd, such as many women "beating their breasts" because they were opposed in principle to the crucifixion. Well, those women were Jews as well:


Luke 23.27-31

27A great number of the people followed him, and among them were women who were beating their breasts and wailing for him. 28But Jesus turned to them and said, ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me...'


So, you can strike them off the list too.

The reality here is that, according to the gospels, the Romans executed Jesus at the instigation primarily of the Sadducee priests especially Caiaphas/Annas. Some Pharisaic elders are implicated in John (not in the synoptics where its just Sadducees pretty much) if my memory recalls but the onus is still on a liaison between Caiaphas as high priest and the Roman regime. i.e. John:


So the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the council, and said, “What are we to do? This man is performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation.” 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not understand that it is better for you to have one man die for the people than to have the whole nation destroyed.” 51 He did not say this on his own, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the dispersed children of God. 53 So from that day on they planned to put him to death.

(John 11:45-53)​


And there ain't no Sadducees around today ,(whereas the Pharisee leadership are given a far more complicated depiction with some opposing the decision and the synoptic passion accounts only really having Sadducees in view with the Romans), so.....
 
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Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
But you see, the Qur'an does not really say that Jesus was never crucified by the Romans.
So what does it say? The Quran says that the Jews - and it borrows this from what Christians claim - say they killed Jesus. It says they never killed Jesus. The Qur'an nowhere mentions Romans at all. It doesn't seem to know anything about the crucifixion.

It negates the claim of the ahlil kithab.
Yes, it does. That claim was:

'Jesus died. The Jews killed him.'

The Qur'an says,

'No the Jews didn't kill him.'

It doesn't go on to say 'But the Romans did', which we would expect if that were the claim it were trying to make.


Also, you seem to be not using historical sources but the Bible itself.
The Bible is a historical source. It's the earliest source for Jesus we have. It's the only source for Jesus we have.

Well, it may very well be historical because of course it is a scholarly consensus based on the probability that the Romans crucified him like they did to all the other people who claimed to be a messiah.
Yes.

Thats a probability.
It is.

. But you can never eve be 100% sure. No way.
No, but when the earliest sources all agree that Jesus was crucified and this is one of their core messages, we can be reasonably sure.

Also, you should know that the Quranic narration about the crucifixion is called "muthadabih" or "Shabaha" which means its "dual".
Yes.

It appeared like that.
So what actually happened?

They were ambiguous about it.
So what actually happened?

They thought they killed him.
So what actually happened?

They thought, they assumed.
So what actually happened?

According to the Qur'an, did Jesus die on a cross or not? I'm not looking for a 'maybe' or an 'It's ambiguous'. Because from this vantage point, it sure looks like it's saying no-one killed Jesus.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
So what does it say? The Quran says that the Jews - and it borrows this from what Christians claim - say they killed Jesus. It says they never killed Jesus. The Qur'an nowhere mentions Romans at all. It doesn't seem to know anything about the crucifixion.

Yep. It doesn't say anything about the Romans. Already said in the OP.
It doesn't go on to say 'But the Romans did', which we would expect if that were the claim it were trying to make.

Well, no one said " it says but the romans did".

No, but when the earliest sources all agree that Jesus was crucified and this is one of their core messages, we can be reasonably sure.

Which historical "earliest source" claims that he was indeed crucified and killed by crucifixion? Please quote.

The rest of your post is just asking "so what actually happened" which is not the question of the OP. Maybe that's a good topic for another thread.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Which historical "earliest source" claims that he was indeed crucified and killed by crucifixion? Please quote.
The gospels. Christians' enemies depictions.

I'm not sure what the Qur'an is trying to prove with this verse.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@firedragon - “so don’t be so sure brother.”

Brother? You’ve been on the forum for how long.... and you haven’t figured out that @Rival is a woman?

Haha. This has happened to me with Rival. It is a habit to say brother because its always a brother. And the letters automatically get typed. I even brought a new laptop just a few days ago but the letters still seem to be getting typed. I cannot replace my fingers to try something out.

Apologies to Rival, again.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
So what is the Qur'an saying here? What do Muslims believe about Jesus, according to this verse?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
1. The Jews claim they killed Jesus (Doesn't say Romans), yet they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him says the Qur'an - 4:157

2. Jesus was called the "Messiah". - 3:45

3. Jesus had followers, him, and his followers preached a theology - 61:14

4. He spoke to the Jews - 5:46, 72

Rather than considering the theological points and all the apologetics on the internet and TV, it would be interesting to just think of these simple historical claims and wonder if it is actually historical objectively.

What you have to say?

The problem with the historical Jesus is we have so little in the way of contemporaneous historical documents other than the NT books themselves. There are accounts of Jesus in both the works of Josephus (most scholars believe a portion was tampered with) and Tacitus. From what we have available (1) is reasonable if taken to mean they killed Him but they did not kill His Spirit. If Muhammad’s intention was literal then He was most likely mistaken. (2),(3) and (4) are entirely consistent with the historical Jesus.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I can conclude for myself that Jesus was a historical figure; an itinerant preacher who had a small band of followers who believed he was the messiah. I'm not sure whether he thought of himself as the messiah, but he certainly imo had heated dialogue with traditional Jews of his day.

Exactly the consensus of historical Jesus scholars :)

He was certainly crucified.

There are two aspects of Jesus's life (other than his itinerant preaching and the teachings one can attribute to him from Q, the earliest discerned layer of the Jesus logia/sayings tradition) that command virtually universal assent amongst scholars of antiquity: his baptism by John and his crucifixion under Pontius Pilate (presumably on the instigation of the High Priest Caiaphas).

The reason these events are accorded such a high degree of historical credibility, quite apart from their unanimous attestation in different traditions including secular sources (Tacitus and the uninterpolated part of the Josephus passage that scholars have reconstructed) in the case of the cross, is that they fit what we know about the the social milieu of the time and would have caused grave embarrassment for the early church, such that New Testament authors endeavoured to make them 'fit' into theological doctrines.

If you have to "explain" and defend something, its clear that you're likely dealing with an inconvenient fact that actually happened.

Something important to bear in mind about ancient Roman understandings of death:


The condition of human life is chiefly determined by its first and last days, because it is of the greatest importance under what auspices it is begun and with what end it is terminated.’

- Valerius Maximus (Memorable Doings and Sayings (“On Deaths out of the Ordinary”) 9.12 praef. LCL 493, trans. D. R. Shackleton Bailey)

Jesus thus died the most ignoble torture-death from a Roman perspective for sedition against their empire, which is not something one is liable to concoct....in the Roman Empire. Cicero described crucifixion as ‘the greatest punishment of slavery’ (Verr. 2.5), while Josephus labelled it ‘the most pitiable of deaths’ (War 7.203).

As Professor Helen K. Bond, an expert on this period, has noted:


"Crucifixion was the most shameful, brutal and degrading form of capital punishment known to the ancient world, reserved for slaves, brigands and any who set themselves up against imperial rule. It was intended to be public, to act both as a deterrent to others and to provide spectacle, even entertainment, to onlookers.

It was a form of death in which the caprice and sadism of the executioners was allowed full reign, as they devised ever more gruesome ways to ridicule the condemned. Stripped naked, the victim was humiliated and shamed as he suffered extreme agony, perhaps for several days, until, overcome by suffocation and exhaustion, the merciful end would come.

So offensive was the cross that civilized people preferred not to talk about it, and few Roman writers ever dwelt on any of the details...


There is no getting away from the fact that Mark’s account, particularly in the crucifixion scene, is the very opposite of a “good death”: Jesus dies alone, in agonized torment, with no one to perform even the most basic rites. As Adela Collins puts it, Jesus’ death in Mark is “anguished, human, and realistic.”"

(see also, J. G. Cook, Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2014).​


It is difficult for me imagine that anyone in their right mind would make such a story up while living under the Romans. The gospels were written to 'defend' the legacy of Jesus and defiantly keep his memory alive, in spite of the Roman attempt to silence and discredit him through crucifixion. If I might quote Professor Bond again:


"...Jesus’ crucifixion was an attempt by the rulers of his day to consign not only his body but also his memory to oblivion. In many ways, Mark’s bios can be seen as an act of defiance, a refusal to accept the Roman sentence and an attempt to shape the way in which both his life and death should be remembered.

His work takes the place of a funeral ovation, outlining Jesus’ way of life and pointing to the family of believers who succeed him.

While men of higher class and greater worldly distinction might have had their epitaphs set in stone, Mark provides his hero with a written monument to a truly worthy life. Mark redeems Jesus’ death not by casting it as ‘noble’ or conventionally ‘honourable,’ but by showing that it conforms perfectly to his counter-cultural teaching
..."

(Bond, H 2018, 'A fitting end? Self-denial and a slave’s death in Mark’s life of Jesus' New Testament Studies)​


Given its deeply subversive nature, the 'cross' and the shameful slave-sedition death that it represents, was evidently not a literary fiction of the early Christians in a Roman context. The early Christians turned an unremitting tragedy (a shameful death for their leader) into a focal point of 'strength' for their movement.

That took a lot of "after-the-fact" rationalization on their part.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
The gospels. Christians' enemies depictions.

I'm not sure what the Qur'an is trying to prove with this verse.

"Sis", I am not addressing the Gospels. Im sorry to negate it as historical record but that's what I am.

Well, the Quran is not trying to prove anything. It is merely saying that the Jews did not kill him, and neither did they crucify him. Which means the Jews did not crucify him (obviously) and it also claims that the Jews did not kill him which also means that they did not force his killing. Basically, the Jews are not the murderers of Jesus. They did not kill him. Neither did they crucify him. When it says Shubbiha, that means it seemed like it. That means people thought that Jews killed him. Rest "what happened" is anyones guess and is not addressed in the Quran.

Historically I would concur with this narrative because there is no real evidence that the Jews got him killed particularly. What we know from these historical sources is that there were many people who claimed to be the messiah and all of them were crucified for sedition by the Romans. Thats it. Thus, it is a fair assumption that since Jesus is recorded by Josephus as the one they called "Messiah" that the Romans crucified him too. Its a very fair assumption and that's where most of the scholars stand (other than the mythicists).

Again, Josephus doesn't say Jesus was crucified by the Romans, yet its a plausible supposition. Thats it. If you have any other source like that I don't mind taking a look at it.

Cheers.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
"Sis", I am not addressing the Gospels. Im sorry to negate it as historical record but that's what I am.

Well, the Quran is not trying to prove anything. It is merely saying that the Jews did not kill him, and neither did they crucify him. Which means the Jews did not crucify him (obviously) and it also claims that the Jews did not kill him which also means that they did not force his killing. Basically, the Jews are not the murderers of Jesus. They did not kill him. Neither did they crucify him. When it says Shubbiha, that means it seemed like it. That means people thought that Jews killed him. Rest "what happened" is anyones guess and is not addressed in the Quran.

Historically I would concur with this narrative because there is no real evidence that the Jews got him killed particularly. What we know from these historical sources is that there were many people who claimed to be the messiah and all of them were crucified for sedition by the Romans. Thats it. Thus, it is a fair assumption that since Jesus is recorded by Josephus as the one they called "Messiah" that the Romans crucified him too. Its a very fair assumption and that's where most of the scholars stand (other than the mythicists).

Again, Josephus doesn't say Jesus was crucified by the Romans, yet its a plausible supposition. Thats it. If you have any other source like that I don't mind taking a look at it.

Cheers.
See above.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, the Quran is not trying to prove anything. It is merely saying that the Jews did not kill him, and neither did they crucify him. Which means the Jews did not crucify him (obviously) and it also claims that the Jews did not kill him which also means that they did not force his killing. Basically, the Jews are not the murderers of Jesus. They did not kill him. Neither did they crucify him. When it says Shubbiha, that means it seemed like it. That means people thought that Jews killed him. Rest "what happened" is anyones guess and is not addressed in the Quran.

Historically I would concur with this narrative because there is no real evidence that the Jews got him killed particularly. What we know from these historical sources is that there were many people who claimed to be the messiah and all of them were crucified for sedition by the Romans.
One could argue that neither the NT, nor the Quran, nor the Talmud can be considered historical evidence for any of the details of the life of Jesus.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
One could argue that neither the NT, nor the Quran, nor the Talmud can be considered historical evidence for any of the details of the life of Jesus.

True.

But that's not relevant brother. The question is, does the Quranic narrative of the historical Jesus match with historical Jesus. You can negate the Quran as historical. I didn't claim it is.

If there is another thread that asks the question "Is the biblical historical claim of Jesus in harmony with the historical Jesus", in that post if I come and say "the Bible is not a historical document" it is irrelevant of me.

Cheers.
 
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