Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

[Greatest I am]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.


Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.


How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.


For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.


So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.


Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?


Regards

DL

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think it is. The big two Abrahamics each claim to offering the cure to the condition they tell us we've got.

 

[George-ananda]

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

No, I think that is too strong a way of putting it. I think the need for salvation is more a holdover from a more primitive stage of religious thought. I think we can move on from that and not throw the baby (Christianity) out with the bathwater. Lets just replace some bathwater, please. I think religion is something that should evolve as our knowledge and information grows and we should not feel that we are nailed to ancient thinking.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Anyone who can understand psychology and mind tricks is likely to say yes.
It's a control mechanism, forced into many from birth, and is especially useful in causing guilt.

 

[RamaRaksha]

No, I think that is too strong a way of putting it. I think the need for salvation is more a holdover from a more primitive stage of religious thought. I think we can move on from that and not throw the baby (Christianity) out with the bathwater. Lets just replace some bathwater, please. I think religion is something that should evolve as our knowledge and information grows and we should not feel that we are nailed to ancient thinking.

wow wow religion should evolve? not be nailed to ancient thinking? you mean accept new ideas? Are you the same guy who mocked me for my new ideas - called them my personal ideas and not Hinduism because they are not in ancient scripture?

 

[RamaRaksha]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.


Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.


How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.


For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.


So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.


Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?


Regards

DL

Just simple primitive ideas put forth by ancient peoples - we give them too much credit for their ideas - the world they knew was quite different - they lived under Kings - there was no democracy - their quality and quantity of life depended on the king - the king was their image of God - the king rewarded his favorites and tortured and killed the disloyal - hence the carrot and stick - you can call it salvation and damnation if you wish

The concept of Hell never made sense - an eye for an eye - how will that make things better? You killed my brother and now i will kill yours? That is vengeance, not justice. How is torturing anyone in hell justice? So this guy killed or raped someone and now he is tortured in hell, how will that help the victim? it does not - strange that so many good and bright people never ask such questions - too happy to drink the kool-aid of heaven and not raise questions

No Justice in God's realm - go figure - but then when you realize that these are all man-made concepts from middle ages, you can clearly see for what they are

But your concept of heaven cannot stand either - so what would you propose to do with Hitler? He goes to heaven? What is never said is the 2,000 year-old hate against jews that has been nurtured by the church culminating in Hitler - what about all those priests and clergymen who kept the hate alive? They get heaven?

No Hell makes sense but you can't have Heaven either

 

[George-ananda]

wow wow religion should evolve? not be nailed to ancient thinking? you mean accept new ideas? Are you the same guy who mocked me for my new ideas - called them my personal ideas and not Hinduism because they are not in ancient scripture?

No, I didn't mock you for having new ideas. I criticized your ideas because they made no sense. And we both agreed not to talk to each other again per your request.

 

[Tumah]

it does not - strange that so many good and bright people never ask such questions - too happy to drink the kool-aid of heaven and not raise questions

In general, I think to myself: if so many good and bright people are not asking the question I have, perhaps I'm not understanding this subject as well as I think I do.

 

[RamaRaksha]

No, I didn't mock you for having new ideas. I criticized your ideas because they made no sense. And we both agreed not to talk to each other again per your request.

lol no i believe you did say it was not Hinduism - it was not Hinduism because you had never read it before in ancient texts - that these were my personal ideas - if you think about it - all religious ideas ARE personal ideas - just because they were living a thousand years ago doesn't mean they had a light behind their heads and God was speaking to them in a booming voice. You mean to tell me you have never heard that a council got together and put together the Bible? Throwing out many texts that they thought were not applicable?

Yes some ideas do not make sense - Einstein thought Bohr was crazy to talk about the quantum world. You didn't understand or appreciate my ideas, fine, the reason i said let's not talk was because you got very personal. When ideas are discussed, no one gets hurt or insulted but that's not what you did

I had to reply - you saying we should welcome new ideas was laughably rich

 

[RamaRaksha]

In general, I think to myself: if so many good and bright people are not asking the question I have, perhaps I'm not understanding this subject as well as I think I do.

Einstein did not understand the Quantum world either proposed by Bohr - calling it God does not play dice - but Bohr persisted and brought everyone around

Every new idea always gets shot down - always - people are comforted by the statu-quo, they hate change

To me it is a bit sad for i do see religion changing in the past, welcoming new ideas - the Buddha basically disagreed with many Hindu teachings - Hinduism said the Buddha was a God because of his teachings. Christianity split into two because of new ideas, so did Islam, so did Buddhism. Sankarachaya said we are one with God, Madhava disagreed

We have become nothing but blind followers - just readers of ancient texts and never wondering or questioning old ideas?

 

[Tumah]

Einstein did not understand the Quantum world either proposed by Bohr - calling it God does not play dice - but Bohr persisted and brought everyone around

I assume that prior to Einstein's statement, he spent some amount of time studying the concepts.

Likewise I'm sure there's a wealth of Christian philosophical works. And I know Islam was a major player in philosophy in its time. It seems very unlikely that leaders of those respective religions did not grapple with the philosophical questions you've asked here.

 

[Jumi]

I don't know about salvation. It never made sense to me that we would need such and that belief was the only way to get it.

 

[RamaRaksha]

I don't know about salvation. It never made sense to me that we would need such and that belief was the only way to get it.

See that these are people living under Kings - to get the good life and live in his kingdom one had to get down on one's knees, beg for his mercy and swear undying loyalty - that is the belief that religions are talking about. Salvation is the right to live in the kingdom - a relatively safe & modern place considering how lawless and primitive ancient life was

Much of the mystery is gone when we realize these are all man-made ideas coming out of living conditions of the day

 

[Greatest I am]

I think it is. The big two Abrahamics each claim to offering the cure to the condition they tell us we've got.

Indeed.

No one stokes the fires of hell quite like the Abrahamic cults.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

No, I think that is too strong a way of putting it. I think the need for salvation is more a holdover from a more primitive stage of religious thought. I think we can move on from that and not throw the baby (Christianity) out with the bathwater. Lets just replace some bathwater, please. I think religion is something that should evolve as our knowledge and information grows and we should not feel that we are nailed to ancient thinking.

Quite astute but have you noted that neither Christianity or Islam is in the reform of stupid and immoral theology business?

That would likely explain why, what is it85% of Christians believe in hell.

You say not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Christianity, like Islam is a homophobic and misogynous religion with a number of immoral tenets.

Add the lie of salvation and Jesus as savior and what is left for you to admire?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Anyone who can understand psychology and mind tricks is likely to say yes.
It's a control mechanism, forced into many from birth, and is especially useful in causing guilt.

Yes but guilt, especially false guilt, causes a lot of mental anguish.

Are you suggesting that the church does not care about the harm it causes it's adherents?
Are you saying they would ignore that just for the cash of their sheeple?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Just simple primitive ideas put forth by ancient peoples - we give them too much credit for their ideas - the world they knew was quite different - they lived under Kings - there was no democracy - their quality and quantity of life depended on the king - the king was their image of God - the king rewarded his favorites and tortured and killed the disloyal - hence the carrot and stick - you can call it salvation and damnation if you wish

The concept of Hell never made sense - an eye for an eye - how will that make things better? You killed my brother and now i will kill yours? That is vengeance, not justice. How is torturing anyone in hell justice? So this guy killed or raped someone and now he is tortured in hell, how will that help the victim? it does not - strange that so many good and bright people never ask such questions - too happy to drink the kool-aid of heaven and not raise questions

No Justice in God's realm - go figure - but then when you realize that these are all man-made concepts from middle ages, you can clearly see for what they are

But your concept of heaven cannot stand either - so what would you propose to do with Hitler? He goes to heaven? What is never said is the 2,000 year-old hate against jews that has been nurtured by the church culminating in Hitler - what about all those priests and clergymen who kept the hate alive? They get heaven?

No Hell makes sense but you can't have Heaven either

Why not? He cannot hurt anyone there.

Did you read in the O.P. ---------For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

On earth, we have to protect ourselves from such murderous ******** but in heaven, we, like God, could see that his blame must be parsed to the thousands if not millions who facilitated his rise to power and who helped form his character.

You indicated that an eye for an eye is overkill. I agree and am showing you heavenly justice.

Not that there is that kind of heaven. But that does not mean we should not attempted to do as the ancients indicated we should do with their, --- as above, so below.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

In general, I think to myself: if so many good and bright people are not asking the question I have, perhaps I'm not understanding this subject as well as I think I do.

One of the few bits of biblical wisdom.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Einstein did not understand the Quantum world either proposed by Bohr - calling it God does not play dice - but Bohr persisted and brought everyone around

Every new idea always gets shot down - always - people are comforted by the statu-quo, they hate change

To me it is a bit sad for i do see religion changing in the past, welcoming new ideas - the Buddha basically disagreed with many Hindu teachings - Hinduism said the Buddha was a God because of his teachings. Christianity split into two because of new ideas, so did Islam, so did Buddhism. Sankarachaya said we are one with God, Madhava disagreed

We have become nothing but blind followers - just readers of ancient texts and never wondering or questioning old ideas?

Conditioning to fear questioning.

When many did, Christianity went on a murdering rampage.

They preached to fear God but meant that we should fear que3stioning religions about God.

Islam is trying to do the same thing via the U.N.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I don't know about salvation. It never made sense to me that we would need such and that belief was the only way to get it.

You are brighter than the average believer. Nice.

Regards
DL