Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

[Akivah]

Quite astute but have you noted that neither Christianity or Islam is in the reform of stupid and immoral theology business?

That would likely explain why, what is it85% of Christians believe in hell.

You say not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Christianity, like Islam is a homophobic and misogynous religion with a number of immoral tenets.

Add the lie of salvation and Jesus as savior and what is left for you to admire?

Regards
DL

I believe that jesus and hell are all part of the same fiction. In order to have a savior, you need to have something to be saved from.

 

[Willamena]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

A book you may be interested in:

 

[Greatest I am]

I believe that jesus and hell are all part of the same fiction. In order to have a savior, you need to have something to be saved from.

Indeed. Just as every hero needs a nemesis who seems to be winning until the final blow that misses and allows the hero to take advantage and show why he is the hero.

The bible is just another hero spoof that Christianity has used against people forever.

Yet people tend not to believe me when I say that religions were all invented as entertainment.

It is all what Socrates would file I his circuses as in bread and circuses.

It was all good entertainment for many years until God seekers became idol worshipers and started to kill to have their imaginary God believed in.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

A book you may be interested in:

Why? Just briefly will do.

Regards
DL

 

[Willamena]

Why? Just briefly will do.

Regards
DL

The author, French philosophy professor Luc Ferry, has a brilliant take on salvation and its role in religion, as well as in atheism.

 

[Akivah]

Yet people tend not to believe me when I say that religions were all invented as entertainment.

It was all good entertainment for many years until God seekers became idol worshipers and started to kill to have their imaginary God believed in.

That was an interesting video. I never knew that pagan temples used these "tricks" to fool their congregants. I think any religion based on needing miracles is set up to be fooled in this manner.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Are you suggesting that the church does not care about the harm it causes it's adherents?
Are you saying they would ignore that just for the cash of their sheeple?

Yes.
Are you saying they don't/wont? That would deny history and current events.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Why not? He cannot hurt anyone there.

Did you read in the O.P. ---------For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

On earth, we have to protect ourselves from such murderous ******** but in heaven, we, like God, could see that his blame must be parsed to the thousands if not millions who facilitated his rise to power and who helped form his character.

You indicated that an eye for an eye is overkill. I agree and am showing you heavenly justice.

Not that there is that kind of heaven. But that does not mean we should not attempted to do as the ancients indicated we should do with their, --- as above, so below.

Regards
DL

You are saying it takes a village to raise a child - yes i agree that a pedophile most likely was also abused as a kid - so blame those who did this to him, but then those that did that to him were also abused? All paths eventually lead to God? So is that why he doesn't punish anyone? lol

Talking about justice - where is the victim's voice? Also when does a person stop blaming his childhood and take responsibility for his actions?

So, then in your view, it really doesn't matter what we do here with our lives, we can always blame mom, dad, society etc and in the end all end up in heaven? Hitler is enjoying the good life?

Does the idea of a heaven make sense to you? So basically God's grand plan is for us to spend some time down on earth, which as you say doesn't matter what we do down here, and then spend the rest of eternity just lying back and enjoying ourselves? There are billions of people right now just lying about on their fat bellies in heaven snoring away eternity? That's the Grand Plan? Does this make any sort of sense?

I am an animal lover - it pains me to see the horrific short lives that these poor mute animals are subjected to - in our greed for the good life the cheap way, we look the other way as people use cruel and inhumane methods - male chicks are not needed by the factory farms - so they dump them all into shredders! These are just babies being cut up into pieces! Or they are dumped into plastic bags and suffocate to death!

Have you ever gone fishing? Have you ever wondered what it must be like to be on the other end? To have a hook put thru your jaw and then be dragged around while you bleed to death? So much fun!

How about bird hunting? Lie in wait and when they take off, just shoot off bullets in the air - the lucky ones will get shot dead right away, the unlucky ones will get shot in the leg or wing, drop down and get to slowly bleed to death. Their babies back in the nest can cry all night for mommy and then slowly starve to death if they don't get eaten by a predator first

We have done so much wrong for other creatures on this planet and continue to do so and we think we deserve to be rewarded with the good life?

Just a religion happy to tell greedy people what they want to hear

 

[RamaRaksha]

Conditioning to fear questioning.

When many did, Christianity went on a murdering rampage.

They preached to fear God but meant that we should fear que3stioning religions about God.

Islam is trying to do the same thing via the U.N.

Regards
DL

Most of the trouble comes when religions and followers see God as a King/Master - religions born in medieval times have done this - they made God in the image of the most powerful man they knew at that time - the King. The King basically decided whether one had a good life or not

What is the No.1 problem with real life? Nothing is free and it is getting worse - back in the day most work depended on muscle power - one could get by without much education, all one needed was muscle - but today the world has totally changed and it is going to get worse for those who lack an education. That's the problem with islamic countries - spoiled by oil riches - a lot of these countries got by with muscle power and as time goes by they fall farther back and that's the appeal of religion and God

Just join x religion, get down on your knees, swear loyalty and beg a little and God will be pleased and give you heaven - the good easy life for eternity! yay! No need to work, you don't have to lift a finger anymore - you can just sit back and take it easy, God will pay all the bills - enjoy the good life

Real Life simply cannot compete with this fake life - that is why they hate Science because Science keeps saying there is no evidence of this Sugar Daddy and his magical lands of plenty & that is where these religions use violence - in countries where islam dominates, no one must question their fantasy ideas

They are running a Ponzi-Scheme, the last thing they want is for someone to question them, say "The Emperor is naked"

 

[George-ananda]

Quite astute but have you noted that neither Christianity or Islam is in the reform of stupid and immoral theology business?

Yes, but those things are the product of the culture and the times.

That would likely explain why, what is it85% of Christians believe in hell.

You say not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Christianity, like Islam is a homophobic and misogynous religion with a number of immoral tenets.

Homophobic? Where was secular society just 100 years ago?

Add the lie of salvation and Jesus as savior and what is left for you to admire?

Jesus saying the most important teaching is to love others as I have loved you. For many in the western world their view is Christianity versus Atheism. That is why I support Christianity against attacks that don't speak of a better alternative.

 

[Etritonakin]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.


Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.


How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.


For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.


So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.


Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?


Regards

DL

The main point is that salvation is from death -and more so that which is worse than death (eternal life in a miserable state -which is NOT what "hell" is about -it actually prevents such and turns people from such)

Unless you know of another solution to death -you need "salvation" -if you want to live forever -which would be awesome if we did things correctly.

The purpose for death is to minimize the destructiveness of sin.

We live long enough to get the general idea -then we die.

Many have lived just long enough in a limited space -using limited resources.

Our self-destruction was also postponed by such things as the confusion of speech at Babel....

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

In order to keep destruction from the entire universe and eternity, we die -that is the general idea of being cut off from the tree of life.
Afterwards, we will be resurrected to a different situation -having the experience necessary to make correct choices -and existing when a government is in place which is able to cause peace.

If your goal is to live this life of ignorance and destruction mixed with awe, wonder and impossible hopes -then you need not be saved from it.

If you want everything that has ever been wrong to make sense and to be made right -you need "salvation".

 

[Greatest I am]

The author, French philosophy professor Luc Ferry, has a brilliant take on salvation and its role in religion, as well as in atheism.

Thanks for this but it is too brief.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

That was an interesting video. I never knew that pagan temples used these "tricks" to fool their congregants. I think any religion based on needing miracles is set up to be fooled in this manner.

For sure.

Take the imaginary resurrection out of Christianity and the religion falls flat on it's lying face.

Regards
DL

 

[Scott C.]

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

I believe that God revealed the need for salvation and he doesn't lie. As far as judgement goes, God takes into account the seemingly millions of mitigating circumstances, good and bad, that influence our behavior.

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes.
Are you saying they don't/wont? That would deny history and current events.

No way would I disagree with your view. U C 20/20 on this.

That makes the church even more evil than I had put it.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

You are saying it takes a village to raise a child - yes i agree that a pedophile most likely was also abused as a kid - so blame those who did this to him, but then those that did that to him were also abused? All paths eventually lead to God? So is that why he doesn't punish anyone? lol

Talking about justice - where is the victim's voice? Also when does a person stop blaming his childhood and take responsibility for his actions?

So, then in your view, it really doesn't matter what we do here with our lives, we can always blame mom, dad, society etc and in the end all end up in heaven? Hitler is enjoying the good life?

Does the idea of a heaven make sense to you? So basically God's grand plan is for us to spend some time down on earth, which as you say doesn't matter what we do down here, and then spend the rest of eternity just lying back and enjoying ourselves? There are billions of people right now just lying about on their fat bellies in heaven snoring away eternity? That's the Grand Plan? Does this make any sort of sense?

I am an animal lover - it pains me to see the horrific short lives that these poor mute animals are subjected to - in our greed for the good life the cheap way, we look the other way as people use cruel and inhumane methods - male chicks are not needed by the factory farms - so they dump them all into shredders! These are just babies being cut up into pieces! Or they are dumped into plastic bags and suffocate to death!

Have you ever gone fishing? Have you ever wondered what it must be like to be on the other end? To have a hook put thru your jaw and then be dragged around while you bleed to death? So much fun!

How about bird hunting? Lie in wait and when they take off, just shoot off bullets in the air - the lucky ones will get shot dead right away, the unlucky ones will get shot in the leg or wing, drop down and get to slowly bleed to death. Their babies back in the nest can cry all night for mommy and then slowly starve to death if they don't get eaten by a predator first

We have done so much wrong for other creatures on this planet and continue to do so and we think we deserve to be rewarded with the good life?

Just a religion happy to tell greedy people what they want to hear

Let me be clear. Heaven, other than what you read below is a hope for something after death. Nothing else.

The only heaven Gnostic Christianity believes in is right here and right now. here is a paste that gives the big picture we see.


Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.


Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be or an ugly and imperfect world?


Candide.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”


That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand. That is an irrefutable statement. You can try to refute it if you do not believe it.

Regards

DL

 

[Greatest I am]

So basically God's grand plan is for us to spend some time down on earth, which as you say doesn't matter what we do down here, and then spend the rest of eternity just lying back and enjoying ourselves?

I hope you never act on that belief.

It definitely matters what we do here but only to us and not some imaginary God.

We are all the product of those around us who have contributed to making us who we are. They share any praise or blame for what we are. That doe not mean that we do not have free will and we do contribute to our own psyche by the choices we make.

For instance, you might decide to do some reading on various moral systems and let them contribute to what you are or you can choose to view porn all day and let it contribute to what you are.

You are autonomous but some of your decisions will have been prompted by all that has contributed to making you, you.

Even what I wrote, if you accept it, will have changed your way of thinking about things.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Most of the trouble comes when religions and followers see God as a King/Master - religions born in medieval times have done this - they made God in the image of the most powerful man they knew at that time - the King. The King basically decided whether one had a good life or not

What is the No.1 problem with real life? Nothing is free and it is getting worse - back in the day most work depended on muscle power - one could get by without much education, all one needed was muscle - but today the world has totally changed and it is going to get worse for those who lack an education. That's the problem with islamic countries - spoiled by oil riches - a lot of these countries got by with muscle power and as time goes by they fall farther back and that's the appeal of religion and God

Just join x religion, get down on your knees, swear loyalty and beg a little and God will be pleased and give you heaven - the good easy life for eternity! yay! No need to work, you don't have to lift a finger anymore - you can just sit back and take it easy, God will pay all the bills - enjoy the good life

Real Life simply cannot compete with this fake life - that is why they hate Science because Science keeps saying there is no evidence of this Sugar Daddy and his magical lands of plenty & that is where these religions use violence - in countries where islam dominates, no one must question their fantasy ideas

They are running a Ponzi-Scheme, the last thing they want is for someone to question them, say "The Emperor is naked"

Insightful and on the mark I think.

The do get quite upset when a bit of light reaches those dark Muslim places in their minds.

They are trained and brainwashed from a young age to resist having the truth enter their minds.

Damn their brainwasher imams to hell.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes, but those things are the product of the culture and the times.

Homophobic? Where was secular society just 100 years ago?

Jesus saying the most important teaching is to love others as I have loved you. For many in the western world their view is Christianity versus Atheism. That is why I support Christianity against attacks that don't speak of a better alternative.

Firstly, if there had been a real Jesus and he would have loved us, he would not have abandoned us.

His most important message was the Golden Rule but that rule was around for thousands of years before the scribes put it in Jesus' mouth. Read the Book of the Dead and you will see a basic early edition of the ten commandments.

As to the homophobia and misogyny that has been a Christian and Muslim staple forever, you might consider that even 100 years ago, those immoral creeds where the vast majority and they ruled the laws of the land.

Your trying to put blame on secular minorities shows how low you have sunk in trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The main point is that salvation is from death -and more so that which is worse than death (eternal life in a miserable state -which is NOT what "hell" is about -it actually prevents such and turns people from such)

Unless you know of another solution to death -you need "salvation" -if you want to live forever -which would be awesome if we did things correctly.

The purpose for death is to minimize the destructiveness of sin.

We live long enough to get the general idea -then we die.

Many have lived just long enough in a limited space -using limited resources.

Our self-destruction was also postponed by such things as the confusion of speech at Babel....

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

In order to keep destruction from the entire universe and eternity, we die -that is the general idea of being cut off from the tree of life.
Afterwards, we will be resurrected to a different situation -having the experience necessary to make correct choices -and existing when a government is in place which is able to cause peace.

If your goal is to live this life of ignorance and destruction mixed with awe, wonder and impossible hopes -then you need not be saved from it.

If you want everything that has ever been wrong to make sense and to be made right -you need "salvation".

Where to start.

Are you aware of the immorality you have to take within yourself to have your imaginary immortal life?

My bottom line on this.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

If you cannot see that, then what this Bishop says will likely right over your head.

If you do not agree with my bottom line, then please show how it is just to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

Regards
DL