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is the quran from God ?

skydivephil

Active Member
Response: Knowing the future has nothing to do with going against free will. For once someone chooses something freely, it is very possible for Allah to have known the choice before the individual being that we are his creation. If I, hypothetically speaking, created you to naturally react to things, then it is very possible for me to know your future after you've used your free will to choose. For example, if you are scared of mice, you can, out of your own free will, react a certain way. I can however, know your exact reaction when seeing a mouse, for I've created your mind and knows how it would react. So my knowing the future does not contradict free will.

As for the verse, it refers to those who will reject islam, no matter the warning, as the verse before clearly states. Therefore, Allah seals them from his divine guidance.

If Allah created my mind and my mind refuses to believe in Allah , then it must be Allahs fault that I dont believe in him. yet hes going to punish me for my nature that he created?
Let me ask you is the set of future events fixed or not fixed?
 

syberpriend

Active Member
However, when something is supposed to be from God, and we have crucial faults like ants talking in there, we can safely say "This isn't from God".[/quote]

God gave powers to the prophets, like moses he gave stick, Jesus he gave power to cure, raise dead from alive etc etc, there is nothing wrong in it, its just u dnt believe, it wont change the history, find in Torah and bible as well, solomon was authenticaly proved, u can't deny him dude.
 

syberpriend

Active Member
If Allah created my mind and my mind refuses to believe in Allah , then it must be Allahs fault that I dont believe in him. yet hes going to punish me for my nature that he created?
Let me ask you is the set of future events fixed or not fixed?

Its not like this, Allah showedd u both right and wrong to choose, if u choose wrong, its ur wiish, not Allah's wish. its same like if teacher teaches u, and u fail, its ur fault not teacher, right?
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
God gave powers to the prophets, like moses he gave stick, Jesus he gave power to cure, raise dead from alive etc etc, there is nothing wrong in it, its just u dnt believe, it wont change the history, find in Torah and bible as well, solomon was authenticaly proved, u can't deny him dude.
Without proof of things like Solomon talking to ants, Moses' stick turning into a snake and things like that, I see no reason to believe in such things. :) They are not fact, they are faith claims, and there is no proof for any of them. Simply because they are in a religious holy book does not mean they actually happened.

There are many religions throughout the world, and many of them have made similar, unprovable claims. Can you prove Hercules was not the son of Zeus? Or that fire was stolen from the gods? Or that Odin hung off of the world tree? If not, does that mean they actually happened, or does it mean they are metaphorical and allegorical explanations and should not be read as historical fact? :D

I don't know how/where/when/with what Solomon was authentically proved, or what you mean by this; could you please explain more what you mean?
 

skydivephil

Active Member
Its not like this, Allah showedd u both right and wrong to choose, if u choose wrong, its ur wiish, not Allah's wish. its same like if teacher teaches u, and u fail, its ur fault not teacher, right?

except in the qu'ran it says that Allah leads us astray:
sura 6 125 : Whomsoever God wishes to guide, He expands His breast to Islam; and he whom God wishes to lead astray , He makes his breast tight and straight, as though he would mount up into heaven; thus does God set His horror on those who do not believe.

furthermore you didn't answer my question, is the future course of events fixed or not fixed?
 

syberpriend

Active Member
Without proof of things like Solomon talking to ants, Moses' stick turning into a snake and things like that, I see no reason to believe in such things. :) They are not fact, they are faith claims, and there is no proof for any of them. Simply because they are in a religious holy book does not mean they actually happened.
Thats y I told y, do research y Israel wants to go to Palestine, and they call it their holy land, but u refuse to do, try it again, u will find the mystery answer:)
There are many religions throughout the world, and many of them have made similar, unprovable claims. Can you prove Hercules was not the son of Zeus? Or that fire was stolen from the gods? Or that Odin hung off of the world tree? If not, does that mean they actually happened, or does it mean they are metaphorical and allegorical explanations and should not be read as historical fact? :D
Their are many religions, but how many of them are true?? most of are man made, like buddhism, sikhsm, etc etc, all are named after some1, taost and others is not in religion category, they are so called reforms, Hinduism is old religion, but all changed, and without any authentic scripture.
So we have the religion which we can rely, that exist since long time, now if u say that pyramids came by itself, and pharoh was also only in books, ppl will laugh at u realy, coz the dead-body is still in museum . these are not myths or stories, these are real.
See this is the problem, u dont want to accept anything, thn wats the point of discussion? we should clearly write on the wall of this RF Site, that " Only mocking is allowed for each other, no authentic justification or history proof will be accepted".
Now if I ask u about aristotle, or Thomas Edison, how u know they were true? did u meet them personaly? or see them saying or inventing something? did u met darwin claiming the theory of evolution? its alll in books, I can make same claim that these are stories, and maybe some1 did these , so there wont be any result of discussion.
I don't know how/where/when/with what Solomon was authentically proved, or what you mean by this; could you please explain more what you mean?

Hope u will understannd
 

syberpriend

Active Member
except in the qu'ran it says that Allah leads us astray:
sura 6 125 : Whomsoever God wishes to guide, He expands His breast to Islam; and he whom God wishes to lead astray , He makes his breast tight and straight, as though he would mount up into heaven; thus does God set His horror on those who do not believe.
At the initial time of Islam, there were many, who were totaly against Islam, and want to kill Prophet Muhammad. e.g Umar, the 2nd caliph of Islam, was among the enemies of Prophet, and want to killl him as well, but 1 incident changed his heart, and he accepted Islam. So its not always that the hearts are sealedd by Allah, if some1 desire for truth, he will be guidedd always, like some members here, whatever answer u give them, they made their mind that they dont want to read and hear and accept, so its not Allah's problem or my problem, these guys are getting hard headed, correct?
furthermore you didn't answer my question, is the future course of events fixed or not fixed?
The course of future events, only Allah knows, and likewise I said, many ppl, who hate Islam, enter Islam in a very strange way, I was in Islamic center in Dubai, and one filipino lady came, with short skirt, andd opeen shirt, etc etc, and she talked to the teacher, and made lots of fun of Islam, but same time teacher listen to her,, and explain to her in polite way, the teachings of Islam. next week I went there again, and the teacher showedd me the same lady in Abaya(Hijab) with face cover, which she willingly acepted, so its Allah\s will for future events also, whatever he desire, will hapen, we can;t say anything,
Hope this answer ur question
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Thats y I told y, do research y Israel wants to go to Palestine, and they call it their holy land, but u refuse to do, try it again, u will find the mystery answer:)
I'm still confused as to what this has to do with the subject.

Their are many religions, but how many of them are true?? most of are man made, like buddhism, sikhsm, etc etc, all are named after some1,
Buddhism is not named after Buddha. Buddha is a title, meaning awakened. Sikhism is a term meaning 'learner' or 'disciple'. Christianity is from the term Christ, you will know it as 'masih'.

So we have the religion which we can rely, that exist since long time, now if u say that pyramids came by itself, and pharoh was also only in books,
That is a gross distortion of what I said. Neither the pharoah nor the pyramids were send by God and performed miracles - and we have evidence the pyramids and the pharoahs exist. There is no direct evidence Moses existed, for example.

Now if I ask u about aristotle, or Thomas Edison, how u know they were true? did u meet them personaly? or see them saying or inventing something? did u met darwin claiming the theory of evolution? its alll in books, I can make same claim that these are stories, and maybe some1 did these
Yet none of these claimed to be prophets, and more importantly, we have descendants of Darwin, we have his grave, his own works, etc.

However, this conversation is going nowhere fast, and so I see little point in continuing it. :)
 

syberpriend

Active Member
I'm still confused as to what this has to do with the subject.
Just find, ofcourse answer is related to it, u will find realiity of solomon, I will give u hint for free :)

Buddhism is not named after Buddha. Buddha is a title, meaning awakened. Sikhism is a term meaning 'learner' or 'disciple'. Christianity is from the term Christ, you will know it as 'masih'.
So what was the name of Buddha? Christianty is after Christ, they traslated, but the rule applies same, its name after some ppl, not neccesary their original names, it means after them in term

That is a gross distortion of what I said. Neither the pharoah nor the pyramids were send by God and performed miracles - and we have evidence the pyramids and the pharoahs exist. There is no direct evidence Moses existed, for example.

Yet none of these claimed to be prophets, and more importantly, we have descendants of Darwin, we have his grave, his own works, etc.
Did I said that Pharoh was sent by God? How u know Pharoh exist? did u met him? Moses have grave, but its not allowedd to built monument in Islam, or carve the grave, I think u r not familiar wth history:)
However, this conversation is going nowhere fast, and so I see little point in continuing it. :)
Its upto u, coz claiming this that I dont agree and these ppl dont exist, is not corrrect, be flexible in nature and life friend, if a person think that he is rright, and others are wrong always, its not a good habit:) The forum is built to know the ideas and concepts of others, eevery knows and rejects others claim, thn wats the use of forum and spending time on non-ending and without conclusion discussion, right?
 

skydivephil

Active Member
The course of future events, only Allah knows,

If Allah knows the future course of all events then free will cant exist. Sure you can predict what Im likely to do based on your knowledge of me, but because I have free will this prediction cannot be guaranteed 100% . I could decide to do something unusual. But if Allah has perfect vision of the future then I cant act any differently than Allah foresees, therefore I have no free will.

furthermore what is the relevance of your story of the 2nd Caliph? The fact is the Qur'an says its Allah who leads non believers astray, so why is he punishing them for their non belief?
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
If Allah created my mind and my mind refuses to believe in Allah , then it must be Allahs fault that I dont believe in him. yet hes going to punish me for my nature that he created?
Let me ask you is the set of future events fixed or not fixed?

Response: Allah created your mind to choose freely. So if you choose not to believe, it's your fault for choosing so. The only thing fixed is your ability to choose, not what you choose.
 

skydivephil

Active Member
except I have cited verses that say otherwise, why don't you address them?
Furthermore how is it a free choice if Im burning in hell if I make the wrong choice? Would if be a free election if the ruling party burnt those who voted against it?
Lastlly if Allah can see the future perfectly then I have no free will in the first place.
 
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syberpriend

Active Member
The course of future events, only Allah knows,

If Allah knows the future course of all events then free will cant exist. Sure you can predict what Im likely to do based on your knowledge of me, but because I have free will this prediction cannot be guaranteed 100% . I could decide to do something unusual. But if Allah has perfect vision of the future then I cant act any differently than Allah foresees, therefore I have no free will.

furthermore what is the relevance of your story of the 2nd Caliph? The fact is the Qur'an says its Allah who leads non believers astray, so why is he punishing them for their non belief?


All the relevance is showed in both the incidents I told u,
in 1st incident, the 2nd caliph, who's heart was also hatred towards Islam, become muslim in a split of second. so it means Allah makes heart soften as he like, depends on person's will.
2nd incident, for future events, no 1 knows, even that girl that the religion she is mocking, she will be perfect part of it.
I dont think anymore confusion is remaining now
 

syberpriend

Active Member
except I have cited verses that say otherwise, why don't you address them?
Furthermore how is it a free choice if Im burning in hell if I make the wrong choice? Would if be a free election if the ruling party burnt those who voted against it?
Lastlly if Allah can see the future perfectly then I have no free will in the first place.

its not that Allah can see future, and u cant have free will, free will is given to u, if u want to accept, ur heart soften, maybe u will be changed, decision is unto u, future events means, for future what will happen tomorrow, that only Allah knows.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
its not that Allah can see future, and u cant have free will, free will is given to u, if u want to accept, ur heart soften, maybe u will be changed, decision is unto u, future events means, for future what will happen tomorrow, that only Allah knows.
Its a basic and very simple fact that you can't have free will while at the same time Allah knows what you will do in the future.
For hundrets of years this has been logically clear and for hundrets of years people still spin webs of rethoric to avoid the problem.
All because they can't let go of the "future" being part of the definition of "allknowing".
 
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