is the quran from God ?

[syberpriend]

Its a basic and very simple fact that you can't have free will while at the same time Allah knows what you will do in the future.
For hundrets of years this has been logically clear and for hundrets of years people still spin webs of rethoric to avoid the problem.
All because they can't let go of the "future" being part of the definition of "allknowing".

See, I gave ue xamples, the real ones, still u r pointing same thing, read again, u will find the answer.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Allah created your mind to choose freely. So if you choose not to believe, it's your fault for choosing so. The only thing fixed is your ability to choose, not what you choose.

Oddly, I would expect an all-knowing being to understand why people chose not to believe - and not hold it against them. Punishing folks for not believing sounds incredibly human, don't you think? Besides why is it the individual's "fault" at all? Why isn't it "god's" fault? Perhaps he should "fire" his advertising group.

Sorry, Fatihah, it doesn't make sense. Can you explain it in a reasonable way so that it does make sense?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

See, I gave ue xamples, the real ones, still u r pointing same thing, read again, u will find the answer.

Are you refering to the text with the caliph and the girl?
These two are not "real evidence" but rather interpretation of you according to the islamic opinion you have had already.

LOGIC however is far more detailed. This topic is millenia old and logically has been solved already. Go read some good books on formal logic.

 

[syberpriend]

Are you refering to the text with the caliph and the girl?
These two are not "real evidence" but rather interpretation of you according to the islamic opinion you have had already.

LOGIC however is far more detailed. This topic is millenia old and logically has been solved already. Go read some good books on formal logic.

What u mean? u r calling them not real evidence from which point of view? and its not Islamic opinion, its a real incident which happen, if u dont want to believe, its upto u, this proves the statement, that the heart will be blocked from knowing the truth, and same u r proving

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

What u mean?

I mean that the only thing that supposedly happened and would be observable is that a) one man who hated islam converted later and b) ne girl that mocked islam supposedly also converted later.

Thats it!

And that "level" of actions can be observed in any society and with any religion.
The same "conversions" can be seen in christianity, judaism and whatever you want to name.

The problem is that you make out of it something special as if it would be unique.
Apart of that it is not related to the question of predestination versus free will.

IF someone acts in free will then at ANY time he can choose what he wants to do.
IF someone knows what the other will do BEFORE that other person actually made the choice then there is no choice!

..if u dont want to believe, its upto u, this proves the statement, that the heart will be blocked from knowing the truth, and same u r proving

You always repeat the same stuff over and over again. As i told you now already twice: YOU make claims here so YOU must proove them.

 

[syberpriend]

I mean that the only thing that supposedly happened and would be observable is that a) one man who hated islam converted later and b) ne girl that mocked islam supposedly also converted later.

Thats it!

And that "level" of actions can be observed in any society and with any religion.
The same "conversions" can be seen in christianity, judaism and whatever you want to name.

The problem is that you make out of it something special as if it would be unique.
Apart of that it is not related to the question of predestination versus free will.

IF someone acts in free will then at ANY time he can choose what he wants to do.
IF someone knows what the other will do BEFORE that other person actually made the choice then there is no choice!

So this is the free will given to human by Allah , as in the example, they chooose wrong 1st, and they were free to do what they want, later also with their free will they choose the right path, no person was stop from free will from Allah. If u can quote any live example, it will be much better

You always repeat the same stuff over and over again. As i told you now already twice: YOU make claims here so YOU must proove them.

For future events, which ALlah knows, this is what u want to know? and want proof for it? can u confirm please

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTEYmirGF]Oddly, I would expect an all-knowing being to understand why people chose not to believe - and not hold it against them. Punishing folks for not believing sounds incredibly human, don't you think?(End Quote)

Response: Not at all. Why would it be?

(Quote YmirGF)
Besides why is it the individual's "fault" at all? Why isn't it "god's" fault? Perhaps he should "fire" his advertising group.

Sorry, Fatihah, it doesn't make sense. Can you explain it in a reasonable way so that it does make sense?(End quote)

Response: It's not Allah's fault because they chose to disbelieve on their own.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

For future events, which ALlah knows, this is what u want to know? and want proof for it? can u confirm please

No, you still didnt understand me.
I simply say that IF God knows all of the future (including my actions) THEN people (including me) have NO free will.
Thats all.

 

[syberpriend]

No, you still didnt understand me.
I simply say that IF God knows all of the future (including my actions) THEN people (including me) have NO free will.
Thats all.

This wat I reply to u dude,
God knows the future events, we human dont know, do u kow tomorrow or next year what u wil do at this time? God knows only, maybe u will be millionare, or travel to any place u never went. or change ur life-style,
God have given u free will to live life as u want, and he have given guidelines to follow as well, to live the best of life, now if u want to follow those guidelines, u will get his path, even if u dont follow, maybe u will get good life, or maybe not. its ur will of choice.

 

[YmirGF]

This wat I reply to u dude,
God knows the future events, we human dont know, do u kow tomorrow or next year what u wil do at this time? God knows only, maybe u will be millionare, or travel to any place u never went. or change ur life-style,
God have given u free will to live life as u want, and he have given guidelines to follow as well, to live the best of life, now if u want to follow those guidelines, u will get his path, even if u dont follow, maybe u will get good life, or maybe not. its ur will of choice.

You have not really thought this through, have you? Reread this very post you have given until YOU understand. The error is staring you in the face, in your own words.

 

[syberpriend]

You have not really thought this through, have you? Reread this very post you have given until YOU understand. The error is staring you in the face, in your own words.

U understand better? thn explain it Ive explained already, if ur mind is not getting inside, its ur problem not mine:cold:

 

[skydivephil]

U understand better? thn explain it Ive explained already, if ur mind is not getting inside, its ur problem not mine:cold:

I hope you don't take this as an insult because its not meant as one. But can I ask have you ever taken a course in logic or critical thinking? it appears you don't really appear to understand the contradiction that is being presented to you.
Its all very well to try and present a solution to the paradox we have presented, but one needs to understand it first. You haven't addressed in any way what the problem is.
let me restate it so it will be clear.
In order to predict something perfectly in the future (with zero percent chance of error) all events must and decisions must be fixed in advance. If free will exists then these events and decision are not fixed in advance, so perfect knowledge of the future is impossible even for Allah. Its one or the other, one cannot have both.

 

[syberpriend]

I hope you don't take this as an insult because its not meant as one. But can I ask have you ever taken a course in logic or critical thinking? it appears you don't really appear to understand the contradiction that is being presented to you.
Its all very well to try and present a solution to the paradox we have presented, but one needs to understand it first. You haven't addressed in any way what the problem is.
let me restate it so it will be clear.
In order to predict something perfectly in the future (with zero percent chance of error) all events must and decisions must be fixed in advance. If free will exists then these events and decision are not fixed in advance, so perfect knowledge of the future is impossible even for Allah. Its one or the other, one cannot have both.

No problem , let me tell u that this explanation is provided already in .
For future events being fix by God, lets take the example # 2 .
The girl was having free will, to choose, wear ,desire, what she wants, but her future was fix that she will become Muslim 1 day. and she did become Muslim, it was free will for her before to be a christian and enjor her life, and ith her free will as wel, she accepted Islam..
Is it clear now or still something remaining?

 

[skydivephil]

No problem , let me tell u that this explanation is provided already in .
For future events being fix by God, lets take the example # 2 .
The girl was having free will, to choose, wear ,desire, what she wants, but her future was fix that she will become Muslim 1 day. and she did become Muslim, it was free will for her before to be a christian and enjor her life, and ith her free will as wel, she accepted Islam..
Is it clear now or still something remaining?

How is she free to choose what to wear if the future is already predetermined?
If god can say what she will pick before she's made the decision, then her decision was not a free choice. Suppose she has a choice between dress A and dress B. Presumably god can tell us she will pick dress A, if god can see the future perfectly she can therefore only pick dress A so she has no freedom of choice. The two are mutually exclusive. You can have a god that can see the future or you can have free will, but you cant have both.