Is the truth beyond words?

[huajiro]

In our deepest moments, we say the most inadequate things
-- Edna O'brien

Is it true that somethings are beyond the power of words to express? Or do words more or less do an adequate job communicating even the most profound truths?

This is another reason I love these forums. You make me think of things that I really have not considered.

I guess words are limited.

I don't know about anyone else, but in some of the most emotionally charged moments of my life, I have felt lack of words to describe what I truly felt.

 

[Pah]

This thread is a perfect example of words not being sufficient in understanding or describing things. Nobody really knows what the other is trying to say. If words could sufficiently provide "truth" then there would be no arguement here because we would all know the truth. As a matter of fact, if words could express "truth" there would be no arguements at all. No different religions for that matter.

Now that's an idea to think about.

-pah-

 

[Sunstone]

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)

What do you think of Ludwig's observation? Can we discern truth that is beyond language?

 

[Lightkeeper]

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)

What do you think of Ludwig's observation? Can we discern truth that is beyond language?

Yes, we can. The problem is we can't verbalize it and pass it on. And maybe that's best, because the bottom line is we all have to find our own truth. It would be laziness and would hold us back to depend on others for the truth.

I would think the main job of this forum is to aid other in finding their own truth and to learn we don't all have to have the same truth. We radiate when we have found our own truth which is beyond words.

 

[cvipertooth]

Another thought: I believe that truth is truth. But many people have different ways of explaining it. thats why this forum is such a great place. If people can put their different opinions together we may ultimately find truth. Isn't this, in a round-about way, how science works? hypothesize and test different things until you can make a n intelligent conclusion.

 

[Master Vigil]

"As an experiement, please try to think of something - anything - without putting a word or symbol to it. I don't think you can."

But if you would ever have the chance to meet an old zen monk, you would have the chance to meet someone who can do exactly that. Just look at their logic, and their koans.

 

[Pah]

"As an experiement, please try to think of something - anything - without putting a word or symbol to it. I don't think you can."

But if you would ever have the chance to meet an old zen monk, you would have the chance to meet someone who can do exactly that. Just look at their logic, and their koans.

In the book Why God Won't Go Away by Neweberg, D'Aquili, and Rause, a devout Buddhist and practioner of Tibetian Mediation (one of eight) explains his experience when meditating. "The conscious mind quiets" "allowing a deeper, simpler part of himself to emerge" "the inner self ... is a literal constant and real" "the essence of his being". "He claims when it emerges during during those moments of meditation when he is most completely absorbed in looking inward, he suddenly understands that his inner self is not an isolated entity, but that he is inextricably connected to all of creation. yet when he tries to put this intensely personal insight into words, he finds himself falling back on familiar cliches ...employed for centuries to express the elusive nature of spiritual experience" "It fells like I am part of of everyone and everything in existence" (page 2)

This would seem to support what you are saying.

The study in which he participated was to map the brain activity when the state of transendance was reached. One of the areas mapped to the experince was the Verbal Conception area (page 34)

The book goes on to recount the story of a 14th century German nun (page 98) who reached, supposedly, the same state through silence and repetitive prayer. From her journal, she descibed the transendance and found that the name of Christ came to her with a great fervor of his love and she continued in the state repeating his name continuoulsy. She found the word that conveyed all the experience.

The Taoist (page 103) "first transends worldly affairs, then material things and finally his own existence. Through this step-by-step nonattachment he achieves enlightenment and is able to see all things as One" One, being his word.

Both the nun and the Taoist would have no problem using thier respective words in describing it to others who have had the same experiece and framework (A Taoist would not be able to convey the experience with his word to the nun and vice versa). Notice I say experience and not the instance of an experience.

I really recommend the book published by Ballantine Publishing Group, 2001, ISBN 0-345-44033-1

-pah-

 

[Master Vigil]

There are also differences between Tibetan buddhism and zen buddhism. This is where you would find my argument. Not within the tibetan system, but within the chan and zen system. And even though the taoist may have used to words to describe his enlightenment. But even in the tao te ching, we hear lao tzu say... He who knows does not speak, and he who speaks does not know.

 

[huajiro]

Another thought: I believe that truth is truth. But many people have different ways of explaining it. thats why this forum is such a great place. If people can put their different opinions together we may ultimately find truth. Isn't this, in a round-about way, how science works? hypothesize and test different things until you can make a n intelligent conclusion.

Im telling you cvipertooth, you are coming over to my side. We could create a great religion the same way. With all the good points from each.

"Use the force Luke"

 

[Master Vigil]

"Im telling you cvipertooth, you are coming over to my side. We could create a great religion the same way. With all the good points from each."

This is what the unitarian universalists try to do. Also the baha'i's have the same concept. I personally don't think it is possible. a universal philosophy, yes. But not a religion. It is the different intricacies within the different perceptions and imaginative rituals that make each religion special, and which attract it's faithful followers. And the force is very taoist. It is not very universal at all. Although I feel it is closer to the truth than the majority of thought out there. "Be mindful of the force young padawan." :jam: