Is the Vatican Jesus different from the Gnostic Jesus?

[VinDino11]

Here is a comparison of Thomas to the canonicals:

After a long period of study by myself and others it has been discovered that the entire Gospel of Thomas can be imbedded into certain strings of verses from other Gospels and Epistles, using the Gospel of Matthew as the main guide.
This provides Thomas with a timeline it does not have by itself.

Sorry I made you work!

extract from: secret jesus 1

Very interesting!

 

[Humanistheart]

When were the Books of the New Testament Written?

30 A.D. : Jesus is Crucified, Dies and is Resurrected

35 A.D. : Gospel of Matthew

40 to 41 A.D. : Book of James
42 A.D. : Gospel of Mark
42 A.D. : Gospel of John

50 A.D. : Book of 1Thessalonians
51 A.D. : Book of 2Thessalonians
53 A.D. (Spring) : Book of Galatians
56 A.D. (Late Winter) : Book of 1Corinthians
57 A.D. (Late Summer) : Book of 2Corinthians
57 A.D. (Winter) : Book of Romans
59 A.D. : Gospel of Luke​

64 to 65 A.D. :Book of 1Peter
65 to 66 A.D. : Book of 2Peter
66 to 67 A.D . : Book of Jude
67 A.D. : Book of 2Timothy​

THESE DATES ARE TOO FAR BETWEEN​

Yet the Apostles Gospels are pretty much similar. So why are their dates so far between? Because these are the surviving copies. All Christian scriptures (Canon/Gnostic) were written by the Apostles in the same time-frame. The birth of Christianity conflicted with the Roman worship and as Christians went underground many copies were made to ensure that it would survive the persecution.​

Christianity was illegal under Roman law. Christians were persecuted and their manuscripts confiscated this how the Empire later was able to compile the New Testament. And at first when Christianity was legalised the many Roman councils removed Gnostic text that conflicted with Roman Worship, decades later however, the Empire abandoned their pagan faith and accepted Jesus (Christianity) but the lost Books were never put back.​

This validates that Gnostic literature's must be accepted in order to complete the faith called Christianity. Everything about the Christian faith is based on what Jesus said, everything, because Jesus is the cornerstone of that faith!​

And another note: This is also why there are many copies found of the same text of the dead sea scrolls and codex. Many copies were made, some survived better then others explaining the multiple copies. The Dialogue of the Savior is single surviving copy. Written for Jesus as he spoke to his Apostles. What a treat!

You've posted this before, on this thread. Reposting dates will not make them any less accurate. It's already been explained to you, the gospels were not written by anyone who knew or even saw jesus in his lifetime. Read Luke. You failed to argue your point before why try tis exact same line again?

 

[VinDino11]

You've posted this before, on this thread. Reposting dates will not make them any less accurate. It's already been explained to you, the gospels were not written by anyone who knew or even saw jesus in his lifetime. Read Luke. You failed to argue your point before why try tis exact same line again?

People that accept what the Empire accepted as the Christian faith are accepting incomplete Christian beliefs because the Empire who compiled the New Testment were Pagans, and did not sellect all books with the words of Jesus .

FACT: Jesus was crucified!
FACT: Apostles were martyred!
FACT: Christians were persecuted!

The Fact that these events took place proves beyond doubt that Jesus was real. That the Apostles were killed for writing down his teachings. That the Christians were persecuted for continuing in making copies only to have the same Empire that confirmed these events turn around and compile the New Testament excluding texts (Gnostic) that interfered with their Roman worship is proof of authority that Christian scriptures were written originally by the Apostles through the actions that the Romans (authorities of that era) took in consequence of these events.

 

[Oberon]

.

FACT: Jesus was crucified!
FACT: Apostles were martyred!
FACT: Christians were persecuted!

FACT: You lack any knowledge to make worthwhile statements on this subject!

 

[VinDino11]

FACT: You lack any knowledge to make worthwhile statements on this subject!

FACT: You have yet to come up with an orignal thought!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I would suggest that every person's Jesus is different from every other Jesus.

The debate that one Jesus is better than another or truer than another is entirely missing the point.

 

[sojourner]

thats not fully true..there are many groups that are Gnostic

actually orthodoxy is closer to Gnosticism than any other form of christianity

Arguably the actual application of Theosis is practically the same as Gnosis...

Gnosticism is in effect more akin to eastern orthodoxy than occidental christianity

of course one could mention the manichaeans that were highly organised...for a 1000 years

My pint was however, Gnosticism posits that theosis is something you must do..a priest cannot do it for you

That's my point. Orthodoxy posits that theosis is something God does. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, God acts through that Body, and it's appointed agents -- in other words, the community.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You ignorance is vulgar. Persistent vulgarity is insulting.

 

[sojourner]

not really ,

its just you and God, or Just God...

That's a huge difference, though, because the paradigm is completely different.
Not saying you're wrong, but there's a wide gulf there between orthodoxy and gnosticism.

 

[VinDino11]

I would suggest that every person's Jesus is different from every other Jesus.

The debate that one Jesus is better than another or truer than another is entirely missing the point.

There is only one Jesus of the Christian belief that the Apostle wrote.

That you speak of a different Jesus not learned from the writing of the Apostles is for you to make clear!:yes:

 

[sojourner]

some think Thomas for instance is "Q" or a large part of Q,

Most don't though. However, most do think that the communities that produced both documents separated very early -- probably prior to 40 c.e. Therefore, the information both communities had would be common info -- and early info.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

There is only one Jesus of the Christian belief that the Apostle wrote.

That you speak of a different Jesus not learned from the writing of the Apostles is for you to make clear!:yes:

Well, I'm not speaking doctrinally, but practically. Each person is an individual and brings out particular qualities in whatever they experience (including Jesus). Through being individuals with events and moods specific to the person, everything we are is colored by our singular worldview.

Each person worships a different Jesus. Arguing about whose is better is arguing over whether the pines or the oaks make the forest.

 

[sojourner]

That would make sense... though Gnostics would probably be somewhat communal today if we could actually find each other I know there are some Gnostic churches out there. While individuality is important, there is a sense that we are all of the same source, and thus a community of others like us wouldn't be such a bad thing. To me anyway.

What I meant was that, in orthodoxy, grace comes from God through the Body of Christ -- the Church. To orthodoxy, religion is not personal -- its communal. We cannot worship by ourselves -- we need a body of believers in order to constitute the Body, which communicates grace to us. ("where two or three are gathered...") Modern Protestantism has overblown the whole "my God and I" thing, IMO.

Please understand, I'm not underscoring one as "better" or "right." I'm merely pointing out marked differences.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mr Cheese
not really ,

its just you and God, or Just God...
That's a huge difference, though, because the paradigm is completely different.
Not saying you're wrong, but there's a wide gulf there between orthodoxy and gnosticism.

.........
nope as its just you and God, or Just God...

are actually the same thing, as all is God

The difference is mystical linguistic gymnatics really...

I realise some orthodox groups are different to others though, I only know what little my Coptic Girl friend has taught me...

:shout pope shenadoah (spelling nazi)

 

[sojourner]

When were the Books of the New Testament Written?

30 A.D. : Jesus is Crucified, Dies and is Resurrected

35 A.D. : Gospel of Matthew

40 to 41 A.D. : Book of James
42 A.D. : Gospel of Mark
42 A.D. : Gospel of John

50 A.D. : Book of 1Thessalonians
51 A.D. : Book of 2Thessalonians
53 A.D. (Spring) : Book of Galatians
56 A.D. (Late Winter) : Book of 1Corinthians
57 A.D. (Late Summer) : Book of 2Corinthians
57 A.D. (Winter) : Book of Romans
59 A.D. : Gospel of Luke​

64 to 65 A.D. :Book of 1Peter
65 to 66 A.D. : Book of 2Peter
66 to 67 A.D . : Book of Jude
67 A.D. : Book of 2Timothy​

THESE DATES ARE TOO FAR BETWEEN​

Yet the Apostles Gospels are pretty much similar. So why are their dates so far between? Because these are the surviving copies. All Christian scriptures (Canon/Gnostic) were written by the Apostles in the same time-frame. The birth of Christianity conflicted with the Roman worship and as Christians went underground many copies were made to ensure that it would survive the persecution.​

Christianity was illegal under Roman law. Christians were persecuted and their manuscripts confiscated this how the Empire later was able to compile the New Testament. And at first when Christianity was legalised the many Roman councils removed Gnostic text that conflicted with Roman Worship, decades later however, the Empire abandoned their pagan faith and accepted Jesus (Christianity) but the lost Books were never put back.​

This validates that Gnostic literature's must be accepted in order to complete the faith called Christianity. Everything about the Christian faith is based on what Jesus said, everything, because Jesus is the cornerstone of that faith!​

And another note: This is also why there are many copies found of the same text of the dead sea scrolls and codex. Many copies were made, some survived better then others explaining the multiple copies. The Dialogue of the Savior is single surviving copy. Written for Jesus as he spoke to his Apostles. What a treat!

Yikes!

 

[VinDino11]

Thank-you Christian Adm/Mods for this Forum!

 

[Mr Cheese]

What I meant was that, in orthodoxy, grace comes from God through the Body of Christ -- the Church. To orthodoxy, religion is not personal -- its communal. We cannot worship by ourselves -- we need a body of believers in order to constitute the Body, which communicates grace to us. ("where two or three are gathered...") Modern Protestantism has overblown the whole "my God and I" thing, IMO.

Please understand, I'm not underscoring one as "better" or "right." I'm merely pointing out marked differences.

which Orthodox church are you a part of may I ask?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yikes!

Uh the dead sea scrolls contain OT or torah texts and others....

they dont contain any NT texts do they?

(goes to check)

 

[sojourner]

There is only one Jesus of the Christian belief that the Apostle wrote.

That you speak of a different Jesus not learned from the writing of the Apostles is for you to make clear!:yes:

There is no "writing of the apostles."

 

[Humanistheart]

People that accept what the Empire accepted as the Christian faith are accepting incomplete Christian beliefs because the Empire who compiled the New Testment were Pagans, and did not sellect all books with the words of Jesus .

FACT: Jesus was crucified!
FACT: Apostles were martyred!
FACT: Christians were persecuted!

The Fact that these events took place proves beyond doubt that Jesus was real. That the Apostles were killed for writing down his teachings. .

One of many problems here is that those are not indeed facts. For one thing, there's no historical proof that jesus was ever alive, let alone cruxified.