Is there a Before Life?

[Peter Stone]

I think we count and measure time cause it fascinates us how it always is taken from us. Time is only important to those who measure it. If we are measuring then we are not spending time cause that always seems to just go to fast. What concern is a time that is not in today. We are only given this clock that is counting down today. I guess if you have something from before today that is going to line the moon and stars to your liking.

 

[Katzpur]

LOL....asking you to back up your beliefs with the Bible is harassing you?

I wonder how many people Jesus "alienated" by telling the truth? How many did Jesus say were on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) Do numbers mean anything to God?

Deeje, you are officially on my ignore list. Feel free to say anything about me or my religion any time in the future. Just know that I won't be seeing it.

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, you are officially on my ignore list. Feel free to say anything about me or my religion any time in the future. Just know that I won't be seeing it.

OK. thanks.

But why run away just because you can't answer simple questions?

You posted the list of your beliefs as a Christian, but they are not based on the Bible, so they must come from a source other than the NT. We know that the source is the BoM, which no other Christian church accepts as the word of God...so there is the problem right there.

I just wanted biblical references to your belief that humans exist in heaven as spirits before being born on earth as mortals. I guess you don't have any.

 

[Aiviu]

So many people are asking about an afterlife. However it makes just as much sense (to me at least) to wonder if there was anything before. I am particularly interested in the responses from those who follow faiths that do not include reincarnation or rebirth. Non the less all contributions are welcome.

My believe is close to what @Katzpur posted in #9 .

6. When Jesus Christ returns to Earth, the bodies of the dead are resurrected, meaning that the spirit that occupied them in life returns to give them life again.

The resurrection of "body" doesn't sounds new to me but apart from the way i am making it up. For which reason i would be resurrected in body?

7. The body is made completely new, perfect, and immortal (meaning that his spirit will never leave again) and the person returns to Heaven to be with God again.

Ok, lets see it from the aspect of those who knew us alive.
We are still souls to anyone but for those who met us in life we appear in the body we had when we've met that means if they are granted to remember us. So the others who remembers us give us our body? If not, how God decides which age my body will have? Based on what He will give it to us that we'll be remembered from another?

 

[Katzpur]

The resurrection of "body" doesn't sounds new to me but apart from the way i am making it up.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Would you mind rephrasing that one statement?

For which reason i would be resurrected in body?

Well, the Bible says that even the hair of our head are numbered to God and not one shall perish. Obviously, that's a hyperbole. If we were resurrected having every hair that we ever had on this earth, we'd be pretty hairy creatures. What I believe this to be saying is that God will preserve that which He created, and He created everything on the Earth that is physical as well as that which is merely spiritual. I've never understood why people have such an aversion to the physical. To me, everything that God has created is important to Him. I don't believe He gave us bodies just to turn around and take them away from us.

Another thing is to consider is that if you believe that the spirit continues to exist in a cognitive state after it leaves the body at death, what is it that really dies? It's the body, and that's all. Now, the word "resurrect" means to bring back to life. If the spirit never died, it does not need to be brought back to life or resurrected. If it was the body that died, it would need to be the body that was brought back to life, and this would happen when the spirit re-entered it and gave it new life.

Ok, lets see it from the aspect of those who knew us alive.
We are still souls to anyone but for those who met us in life we appear in the body we had when we've met that means if they are granted to remember us. So the others who remembers us give us our body? If not, how God decides which age my body will have? Based on what He will give it to us that we'll be remembered from another?

I couldn't tell you at what age I believe your body will be, except that I do believe it will be recognizable to those you knew. When I see my beloved mother again, whether she appears to be 30 or 60 or 90 I will know her and she will know me. I do believe we will be in a perfect state, so I kind of imagine that I will be a perfect me. I will have no physical flaws or imperfections, but will appear as a perfect creation, a perfect daughter of my Heavenly Father. And you know what? When I see my loved ones again, whether they be family or friends or pets (yes, my religion teaches that animals will be resurrected), I will not only be able to sense their presence. I will be able to throw my arms around them and embrace them again, which is something I would not be able to do if they were merely spirit.

 

[Berserk]

I don't want to hijack this thread. But let me make a claim that I will back up in a new thread: In ancient Judaism, the teaching of Jesus, and the teaching of the early church, we find a belief in the preexistence of the soul. But there is no Jewish belief in reincarnation in the Judaism of the first 2 centuries AD or in the Bible. Just for fun, here's a question: In the Catholic Bible, who can identify 3 texts that seem to imply the soul's preexistence? I'll answer in a new thread in which I'll raise the question of the spiritual significance of this teaching from a Christian perspective.

 

[Aiviu]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Would you mind rephrasing that one statement?

Lets say i tried or still try to made it up how it is possible that i will met someone who i had lost. I seeked for a possible heaven this someone mentioned to me. I walked aside the possiblity of God and heaven. I never was grown up in religion. I grow myself into it. I am very sceptic with what i imagine to be true. That i'll cut it as i found myself thinking for what i wish for. The honest imagination of thoughts i can come up with is that we drop back into God, home, or consciousness love were we slowly will fade into. A possible "meet again" is the sense we will be given. But without missing how long will we remember? Thus we will remember it for no more than a brief moment.

Well, the Bible says that even the hair of our head are numbered to God and not one shall perish. Obviously, that's a hyperbole. If we were resurrected having every hair that we ever had on this earth, we'd be pretty hairy creatures. What I believe this to be saying is that God will preserve that which He created, and He created everything on the Earth that is physical as well as that which is merely spiritual. I've never understood why people have such an aversion to the physical. To me, everything that God has created is important to Him. I don't believe He gave us bodies just to turn around and take them away from us.

I guess that aversion comes because ppl measure beauty on their own physcial appearance. I dunno if body after all is that important. Those who we love seemed merely to leave just to raise our consciousness that God exists. Those who i thought to have a meaning to stay.

Another thing is to consider is that if you believe that the spirit continues to exist in a cognitive state after it leaves the body at death, what is it that really dies? It's the body, and that's all. Now, the word "resurrect" means to bring back to life. If the spirit never died, it does not need to be brought back to life or resurrected. If it was the body that died, it would need to be the body that was brought back to life, and this would happen when the spirit re-entered it and gave it new life.

This cognitive state is the sleeping in the particular part of a memory we made in others.This memory will be judged and can die if one were untrue. God will fill the gap in the one who was true. For what could happen after that i simply dont know or i havnt found a reasonable imagination or mental experience (i can make reasonable) to come up with.

I couldn't tell you at what age I believe your body will be, except that I do believe it will be recognizable to those you knew. When I see my beloved mother again, whether she appears to be 30 or 60 or 90 I will know her and she will know me. I do believe we will be in a perfect state, so I kind of imagine that I will be a perfect me. I will have no physical flaws or imperfections, but will appear as a perfect creation, a perfect daughter of my Heavenly Father. And you know what? When I see my loved ones again, whether they be family or friends or pets (yes, my religion teaches that animals will be resurrected), I will not only be able to sense their presence. I will be able to throw my arms around them and embrace them again, which is something I would not be able to do if they were merely spirit.

Hmm.. I could imagine a body of lights as the most possible. Grasping anothers hand will be not possible, or? Hmm... ok maybe if light will be the only physical resistance we can sense. We had to be reborn and learn to sense the new life form of light. ... We were born to earth and learnt too .. so i guess to grasp each others hand could be possible.

Spoiler: ranting

The one i lost who i still miss the most i had not enough time to love. I ought to be the friend who give a heart to make it possible to enter heaven. Why i even thought its someone who was meant for me as in lovers? Lovers which was undenyingly died in my parents love which i seeked to restore alike? Love? Lovers? What if we are childs of God what lovers truely mean? Anyways. My heaven for me will be a "Finally" when i meet that someone.

I was asking about the age because i cant imagine everything in one place as if someone has a body of ages in your life (child,grownup, old person) ... This must be arranged in a new space and time. If i think of adam and eve then it seems to let us understand that God is the only one who decides who we love. God is the love not the word from eve trying to replacing love. God as the place we are in. God as the matter we are made of. Our instinct is true love thus to feel alive in conscious love. So why we takin the detour of having a mortal life? Was it that God sees to whom we are meant for, that we remember who was meant for us, or to rememember what we've promised who we previously made meant for us? Or just to experience true love? What does lovers are meant in this?

I am afraid that evenutally not much but the loved but gone ones would have a passage in our memory to heaven. So no one can save theirself through believe. Its to find a way into the heart that they may save/remembers us in a recognition we were of true love for them. This seems to be the gift which has to be given without mention it to our offspring that those can heaven sent their parents and sometimes even lovers who in Gods love had no possiblity to have an offspring. God seems to be the unphysical love in us apart from all physical where the physical merely is the latter evidence for us after they had gone. And an evidence for God after we are gone.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't want to hijack this thread. But let me make a claim that I will back up in a new thread: In ancient Judaism, the teaching of Jesus, and the teaching of the early church, we find a belief in the preexistence of the soul.

I believe you're right. I'm not sure that a new thread is needed, but I'll be watching for it nevertheless.

 

[Berserk]

OK, I'll resist the temptation to start a new thread on this topic and will instead offer a shorter version of my response that will answer my question posed above about 3 biblical texts that imply the preexistence of the soul.

(1) Jesus's disciples apparently believe in the preexistence of the soul. This belief is implicit in the question they pose to Jesus about a man they encounter who has been born blind: "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he has been born blind (John 9:2)?"
Their question presupposes the concept of a premortal life during which good or evil choices can be made. Note that Jesus does not dispute their assumption, but rather insists that in this blind man's case he was born blind, so that God can be glorified through his healing. In

(2) The OT background of this belief is illustrated by Wisdom of Solomon 8:18-20: "As a child, I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body." [This document is in the Catholic OT only.] In intertestamental Jewish thought, souls are created before the earth's creation: "All souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth (2 Enoch 23:5)." The Jewish Essenes of Jesus' day explain their preexistence this way: "The soul is immortal and imperishable. Emanating from the finest ether, these souls become entangled, as it were, in the prison house of the body. to which they are dragged down by a sort of natural spell (Josephus, Wars 2.9.11)."

(3) God's call to Jeremiah implies more than divine foreknowledge; it implies his soul's preexistence: "Before you were formed in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you and appointed you a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:5)." And Paul has Jeremiah's prophetic call in mind when he explains his own apostolic call: "He [God] who had set me apart before I was born (Galatians 1:15)."

None of these texts implies reincarnation. There is no evidence for Jewish belief in reincarnation in first century Palestine. The earliest evidence for a Jewish belief in reincarnation develops around the 7th century AD with the rise of Merkabah and Kabbala mysticism. The earliest evidence for Christian reincarnationism is the transjordanian Jewish sect called the Elchasaites which emerge in 102 AD. Some 2nd century Christian Gnostics also believe in reincarnation. It is often wrongly claimed that the church father Origen (c. 225 AD) embraces reincarnation. He does not believe that we repeatedly return to our earth for additional incarnations. But he comes close; he believes that our souls have continually migrated from other worlds to new worlds for new incarnations.

 

[rocala]

Very interesting, thanks for posting this.

It is often wrongly claimed that the church father Origen (c. 225 AD) embraces reincarnation. He does not believe that we repeatedly return to our earth for additional incarnations. But he comes close; he believes that our souls have continually migrated from other worlds to new worlds for new incarnations.

Is the earthly aspect essential to the definition of reincarnation? If not, in what way is Origen only coming close?

 

[Berserk]

Authors like Michael Newton and Dr. Ian Stevenson like to tie in faith in reincarnation with alleged past life recall of young children who claim to recall a prior life on earth. Most reincarnationists are referring to such a version. But if you expand that to include past lives in other worlds, perhaps in other dimensions, then the term seems appropriate--yes.

 

[Katzpur]

OK, I'll resist the temptation to start a new thread on this topic and will instead offer a shorter version of my response that will answer my question posed above about 3 biblical texts that imply the preexistence of the soul.

(1) Jesus's disciples apparently believe in the preexistence of the soul. This belief is implicit in the question they pose to Jesus about a man they encounter who has been born blind: "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he has been born blind (John 9:2)?"
Their question presupposes the concept of a premortal life during which good or evil choices can be made. Note that Jesus does not dispute their assumption, but rather insists that in this blind man's case he was born blind, so that God can be glorified through his healing. In

(2) The OT background of this belief is illustrated by Wisdom of Solomon 8:18-20: "As a child, I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body." [This document is in the Catholic OT only.] In intertestamental Jewish thought, souls are created before the earth's creation: "All souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth (2 Enoch 23:5)." The Jewish Essenes of Jesus' day explain their preexistence this way: "The soul is immortal and imperishable. Emanating from the finest ether, these souls become entangled, as it were, in the prison house of the body. to which they are dragged down by a sort of natural spell (Josephus, Wars 2.9.11)."

(3) God's call to Jeremiah implies more than divine foreknowledge; it implies his soul's preexistence: "Before you were formed in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you and appointed you a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:5)." And Paul has Jeremiah's prophetic call in mind when he explains his own apostolic call: "He [God] who had set me apart before I was born (Galatians 1:15)."

None of these texts implies reincarnation. There is no evidence for Jewish belief in reincarnation in first century Palestine. The earliest evidence for a Jewish belief in reincarnation develops around the 7th century AD with the rise of Merkabah and Kabbala mysticism. The earliest evidence for Christian reincarnationism is the transjordanian Jewish sect called the Elchasaites which emerge in 102 AD. Some 2nd century Christian Gnostics also believe in reincarnation. It is often wrongly claimed that the church father Origen (c. 225 AD) embraces reincarnation. He does not believe that we repeatedly return to our earth for additional incarnations. But he comes close; he believes that our souls have continually migrated from other worlds to new worlds for new incarnations.

I am in total agreement with you. While I was unfamiliar with the passage from the Wisdom of Solomon, I have frequently used your other two examples to support this argument. Also, to add to your list of biblical texts...

(4) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7). How could a spirit return to a place where it had never been before? The spirit is said to "return" to God, not merely to "go" to God.