• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is there a one answer ?

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Sure. What I said was "But religious beliefs can stray quite apart from objectivity, particularly when matters of beliefs about deities become relevant."

That touches on quite a lot, but for now let's focus on how relevant beliefs about deities are or should be in religion.

My position is that ultimately religion is better off avoiding the concept of deity entirely, except perhaps in consideration to the very real fact that many people have an affinity for it and will believe in God no matter what.

There is little point and considerable harm in attempting to fight that outright, so we have to learn to accept and respect Theism as a necessary part of many people's beliefs.

However, that respect must be balanced with the realization that whatever else God can be, he is by definition not much of an answer. Answers are supposed to be clarifications, and most conceptions of God are at least in part an appeal to trascendental mystery. Far closer to a demand or invitation not to seek answers and explanations than an attempt at providing them.

Circunstantial evidence seems to support that view as well. So many people believe in some variety of a creator God, yet have so little to show for that belief. They often hold sharply divergent beliefs beyond that point, which to me at least sounds more than a bit counter-intuitive. Is it too much to expect God to be reasonably clear on His message? Why would he even allow so many sincere believers to hold such fierce disagreements about His Will so often as he apparently does?

Some people maintain that is very important to know which or even how many Gods "truly" exist. But to me the very fact that there is a real controversy is itself evidence that there is no clear answer. After all, who would choose to ever believe in an untrue God? Yet it is not really possible to reconcile the many conceptions that exist. Either God beliefs are a very personal matter or literally billions of people are somehow very mistaken on the matter despite their own best efforts.

And how many Gods exist is just one, arguably one of the least significant, of the many matters about God that divide believers. And it really matters very little. Nearly anything else is more important. God beliefs have very little significance except to where related to the emotional and existential needs of the (specific) believers themselves. Even wise humans know better than to value fame and recognition over actual purity of motivation, wisdom, loving care for other people. I can only assume that a real God will know much better indeed than to care whether I call him Allah, Kami, Shiva or Krishna, or even whether I believe in him at all.

Ultimately, answers and moral values - and nearly all of religious matters that have any importance beyond a strictly personal sphere - simply don't benefit from referencing god beliefs in any way. One person's God may seem to reward killing other believers, other person's will make it so very clear that slaughter is an offense to the human nature and loving potential of those others. One may reject homosexuals, another may accept physical punishment of children, and there are even claims of support for specific political candidates.

It is just so easy to see that we all have bigger fish to fry. Fighting illiteracy, ensuring minlmal basic living structure for as many people as possible, acknowledging and dealing responsibly with each other's shortcomings and legitimate personal needs, even just attempting to resolve the sad reality that many people suffer terribly from hunger every day. You name it. There is quite a lot for people to care about without having to decide or attempt whether to hold any supernatural beliefs.

And in my sincere opinion, God beliefs are simply not helpful there.

Thanks for your input.

I would say that you have hit on the most important points that one could possibly hold against believing in God or actually being a theist.

I will not try to counter your response here, I don't think there would be an interest in that here right now.

Perhaps your last line is why I respect you more than many people, even though we have big differences in the discussed point.

But I just want to tell you, that in my sincere opinion, you are painting all the religions with the same brush. I think religions must be evaluated for what it really teaches and what it really is. Perhaps the big difference between you and me is generated from the latter sentence. I think you are a person who puts extra emphasis on what people are doing in the name of religion, whether the religion teaches them that or not when what matters to me is what a religion teaches.

One more thing, I don't think that removing the concept of deity is possible in any religion, because that is the major point of what really defines it. Everything else will hang on the concept.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
For me God both exists as does not exist. I can perceive God only when I perceive myself separate from God. Where there is no separation there is no God to be perceived.

We perceive what we perceive and what we perceive is not "fact". God exists as we perceive God to exist. Perception is our reality but that does not make it fact. The perception of each individual is unique, especially when it comes to God.

Does that mean that in reality, any god will take the form to match your perception?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thanks for your input.

I would say that you have hit on the most important points that one could possibly hold against believing in God or actually being a theist.

I will not try to counter your response here, I don't think there would be an interest in that here right now.

Perhaps your last line is why I respect you more than many people, even though we have big differences in the discussed point.

But I just want to tell you, that in my sincere opinion, you are painting all the religions with the same brush. I think religions must be evaluated for what it really teaches and what it really is. Perhaps the big difference between you and me is generated from the latter sentence. I think you are a person who puts extra emphasis on what people are doing in the name of religion, whether the religion teaches them that or not when what matters to me is what a religion teaches.

One more thing, I don't think that removing the concept of deity is possible in any religion, because that is the major point of what really defines it. Everything else will hang on the concept.

Your consideration is appreciated, although at times I can't help but wonder if it is not misguided as well.

But I just want to tell you, that in my sincere opinion, you are painting all the religions with the same brush.

Do you think so? I see religions as very varied indeed. If I dare say so, probably more so than you do.


I think religions must be evaluated for what it really teaches and what it really is.

Certainly.


Perhaps the big difference between you and me is generated from the latter sentence. I think you are a person who puts extra emphasis on what people are doing in the name of religion,

By your perspective that may well be. I don't think religion can be legitimaly said to exist except as people make them be.


whether the religion teaches them that or not when what matters to me is what a religion teaches.

Maybe you over-emphasize the difference between what a religion teaches and what people learn from it? I'm not sure I acknowledge that such a difference even exists.

One more thing, I don't think that removing the concept of deity is possible in any religion, because that is the major point of what really defines it. Everything else will hang on the concept.

On that we probably must agree to disagree, then. I just don't see things that way.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Your consideration is appreciated, although at times I can't help but wonder if it is not misguided as well.

I think most people view themselves as having the truth, that is why we they hold their beliefs. So both of us wondering if the other is misguided is a normal thing. The important thing I think is to think out of the box as they say.

As for the other people, I don't think they really care whether they have the truth or not.

Do you think so? I see religions as very varied indeed. If I dare say so, probably more so than you do.

I am not accusing you of not viewing them as varied. I am talking about the points you see that are common in all religions. That is being misguided for example.


Maybe you over-emphasize the difference between what a religion teaches and what people learn from it? I'm not sure I acknowledge that such a difference even exists.

I was mainly focusing about wars in the name of religion.

On that we probably must agree to disagree, then. I just don't see things that way.

Agreed to disagree
 
Top