Sabour
Well-Known Member
Sure. What I said was "But religious beliefs can stray quite apart from objectivity, particularly when matters of beliefs about deities become relevant."
That touches on quite a lot, but for now let's focus on how relevant beliefs about deities are or should be in religion.
My position is that ultimately religion is better off avoiding the concept of deity entirely, except perhaps in consideration to the very real fact that many people have an affinity for it and will believe in God no matter what.
There is little point and considerable harm in attempting to fight that outright, so we have to learn to accept and respect Theism as a necessary part of many people's beliefs.
However, that respect must be balanced with the realization that whatever else God can be, he is by definition not much of an answer. Answers are supposed to be clarifications, and most conceptions of God are at least in part an appeal to trascendental mystery. Far closer to a demand or invitation not to seek answers and explanations than an attempt at providing them.
Circunstantial evidence seems to support that view as well. So many people believe in some variety of a creator God, yet have so little to show for that belief. They often hold sharply divergent beliefs beyond that point, which to me at least sounds more than a bit counter-intuitive. Is it too much to expect God to be reasonably clear on His message? Why would he even allow so many sincere believers to hold such fierce disagreements about His Will so often as he apparently does?
Some people maintain that is very important to know which or even how many Gods "truly" exist. But to me the very fact that there is a real controversy is itself evidence that there is no clear answer. After all, who would choose to ever believe in an untrue God? Yet it is not really possible to reconcile the many conceptions that exist. Either God beliefs are a very personal matter or literally billions of people are somehow very mistaken on the matter despite their own best efforts.
And how many Gods exist is just one, arguably one of the least significant, of the many matters about God that divide believers. And it really matters very little. Nearly anything else is more important. God beliefs have very little significance except to where related to the emotional and existential needs of the (specific) believers themselves. Even wise humans know better than to value fame and recognition over actual purity of motivation, wisdom, loving care for other people. I can only assume that a real God will know much better indeed than to care whether I call him Allah, Kami, Shiva or Krishna, or even whether I believe in him at all.
Ultimately, answers and moral values - and nearly all of religious matters that have any importance beyond a strictly personal sphere - simply don't benefit from referencing god beliefs in any way. One person's God may seem to reward killing other believers, other person's will make it so very clear that slaughter is an offense to the human nature and loving potential of those others. One may reject homosexuals, another may accept physical punishment of children, and there are even claims of support for specific political candidates.
It is just so easy to see that we all have bigger fish to fry. Fighting illiteracy, ensuring minlmal basic living structure for as many people as possible, acknowledging and dealing responsibly with each other's shortcomings and legitimate personal needs, even just attempting to resolve the sad reality that many people suffer terribly from hunger every day. You name it. There is quite a lot for people to care about without having to decide or attempt whether to hold any supernatural beliefs.
And in my sincere opinion, God beliefs are simply not helpful there.
Thanks for your input.
I would say that you have hit on the most important points that one could possibly hold against believing in God or actually being a theist.
I will not try to counter your response here, I don't think there would be an interest in that here right now.
Perhaps your last line is why I respect you more than many people, even though we have big differences in the discussed point.
But I just want to tell you, that in my sincere opinion, you are painting all the religions with the same brush. I think religions must be evaluated for what it really teaches and what it really is. Perhaps the big difference between you and me is generated from the latter sentence. I think you are a person who puts extra emphasis on what people are doing in the name of religion, whether the religion teaches them that or not when what matters to me is what a religion teaches.
One more thing, I don't think that removing the concept of deity is possible in any religion, because that is the major point of what really defines it. Everything else will hang on the concept.