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Is There a Rational Reason for Mandatory Labeling of GM Foods?

What I take issue with is the hyperbolic use of the word "massive" in there. Though it doesn't help that anything and everything can be construed as "bad" or "harmful" on some level. When I studied risk analysis in graduate school, it was made quite clear that there is no such thing as a zero "harm" scenario. It doesn't exist. What risk analyses do is examine the probability of "harm" (objectively and operationally defined so it can be analyzed) given a certain level of exposure. From there, the actual managing of the risk is based on stakeholder input and ultimately boils down to value judgements (e.g., what level of "harm" is acceptable).

So to me this is the wrong question. It is impossible to do anything that is not harmful in some way. The right question is what levels of exposure cause undesired outcomes, what the risk-benefit balance is, and what can practically be regulated. There are tons of regulations on the development and release of new GMO products, so really, I am not even a little bit worried about "massive" harm, or an improper risk analysis being done. I've seen too much of it firsthand for that - it's downright anal retentive. XD

What do you think of this paper?

It is written by risk specialists involving complex systems rather than biologists, who argue that risk analysis is not applicable to certain problems due to them posing 'systemic' risks with the threat of 'ruin'. We have a track record of underestimating the likelihood of such events, and over time (perhaps a very long time) lots of small risks actually relates to a significant risk. Ultimately, we lack the information to accurately calculate the risks, and unexpected consequences are very likely to happen at some stage.

As such, potential benefits are less important than the threat of systemic harms.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think of this paper?

I'm familiar with the principle, and agree with the overall scope and presentation of the paper, at least up until the point where they start talking outside of their fields and try to rationalize GMOs being what they define as a "ruin" scenario or "involve total irreversible ruin, such as the extinction of human beings or all life on the planet." I mean, seriously? That's setting the bar
way to high, not just for GMOs, but for... well... virtually everything short of a giant asteroid from space, runaway global warming, or peppering the entire planet with nukes. They kind of lost me at attempting to pitch that ball. If they toned back the hyperbole, they're right about the potential spatial scale of the issue and things like cross-breeding. Because places like this exist, I'm not particularly concerned about the cross-breeding issue. That, and there being no documented harms to human health from anything on the market, along with the strict regulations governing production and development of these crops. Now, if we had backyard gardeners doing this stuff and not having any oversight, yeah, I'd be seriously concerned. That is not, however, the system we have. :D
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In the US there is a constitutional reason for proscribing compelled speech, which is what mandatory labeling of GM foods is.
There most certainly is not.
Yes, there is. The Court has been unequivocal in holding that the First Amendment protects against compelled speech when the speech does not pass strict scrutiny, and that there is no general "right to know" an ingredient in a food product when the ingredient does not constitute a material difference. See:

West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette

Central Hudson Gas & Elec. Corp. v. Pub. Serv. Commission

American Meat Institute v. United States Dep’t of Agric.

International Diary Foods Association v. Amestoy


Frankly, nobody ever has to label anything.
You need to familiarize yourself with the law. Congress and the FDA (by power of Congress) impose numerous conditions for food labels.



BTW: I briefly looked for some kind of "official report" by the government or a professional organization of scientists claiming that smoking tobacco was safe. I could not find any such report. If you know of any such "official report," give it. It seems that not only was your reasoning in your first post here erroneous, it was premised on a falsehood.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, at least you are now admitting that it is a political issue.
I have certainly never suggested that the issue of enacting mandatory labeling laws for GM foods is any less of a political issue than enacting any other sorts of laws. To repeat the AMA: “There is no scientific justification for special labeling of genetically modified foods." It is only those who erroneously believe that GM foods are somehow less safe than conventionally bred and hybridized foods who try to suggest that there is some "scientific" reason for mandatory labeling.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you are planning to produce a food item for export, you will have to know if any of the ingredients are GMO in order to conform to GMO labeling laws outside the USA, so labels are relevant.
US companies that make any kind of product in the US and export to other countries have to abide by the laws of the importing company. That doesn't mean that the products sold in the US must or should abide by another country's labeling laws.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wish to quote from International Dairy v. Amstoy (1996) because it so directly addresses the issue of a "right to know" or simple curiosity, which several people here have asserted as a reason for mandatory labeling of GM foods. In Int'l Dairy, plaintiffs challenged the constitutionality of Vermont's law that required dairy manufacturers to label or otherwise identify products that were or might have been produced from dairy cows treated with the synthetic growth hormone Bovine Somatotropin (rBST). Plaintiffs moved for a preliminary injunction seeking to enjoin enforcement of the statute. The district court denied the motion, and the Second Circuit ruled on plaintiffs' appeal, for which the court had to determine plaintiffs' likelihood of success on the merits.

Please note that I do not necessarily agree with the court's or the FDA's conclusion that there are no "health concerns associated with food products derived from cows treated with rBST." I know basically nothing about rBST, or about cows or milk from cows injected with rBST. As the dissent notes, many people consider giving cows rBST to be abuse of the animal (of course, dairy cows are abused every day of their pitiful lives). A further difference between milk from cows given rBST and genetically modified plant foods is that the dairy product contains at least detectable amounts of this synthetic hormone, whereas there is no such distinction between plants whose genomes have been modified by rDNA techniques and those whose genomes have been modified by conventional breeding and hybridization techniques--indeed, it is the latter that show greater genetic difference from the reference plant.

In any case, I quote from Int'l Dairy merely to inform on the standard relating to mandatory labeling:

In [Central Hudson Gas & Elec. Corp. v. Public Serv. Commission], the Supreme Court articulated a four-part analysis for determining whether a government restriction on commercial speech is permissible.  447 U.S. at 566, 100 S.Ct. at 2351.   We need not address the controversy concerning the nature of the speech in question--commercial or political--because we find that Vermont fails to meet the less stringent constitutional requirements applicable to compelled commercial speech.

Under Central Hudson, we must determine:  (1) whether the expression concerns lawful activity and is not misleading;  (2) whether the government's interest is substantial;  (3) whether the labeling law directly serves the asserted interest;  and (4) whether the labeling law is no more extensive than necessary.   See id.;   see also Edenfield v. Fane, 507 U.S. 761, 766-67, 113 S.Ct. 1792, 1798, 123 L.Ed.2d 543 (1993).   Furthermore, the State of Vermont bears the burden of justifying its labeling law.   See Edenfield, 507 U.S. at 770-71, 113 S.Ct. at 1800;  Bolger v. Youngs Drug Prods. Corp., 463 U.S. 60, 71 n. 20, 103 S.Ct. 2875, 2882 n. 20, 77 L.Ed.2d 469 (1983).   As the Supreme Court has made clear, “[t]his burden is not satisfied by mere speculation or conjecture;  rather, a governmental body seeking to sustain a restriction on commercial speech must demonstrate that the harms it recites are real and that its restriction will in fact alleviate them to a material degree.”  Edenfield, 507 U.S. at 770-71, 113 S.Ct. at 1800;  see also Ibanez v. Florida Dep't of Business and Prof. Reg., Board of Accountancy, 512 U.S. 136, ----, 114 S.Ct. 2084, 2089, 129 L.Ed.2d 118 (1994) ( “State's burden is not slight”).

In our view, Vermont has failed to establish the second prong of the Central Hudson test, namely that its interest is substantial.   In making this determination, we rely only upon those interests set forth by Vermont before the district court.   See Edenfield, 507 U.S. at 766-67, 113 S.Ct. at 1798 (“[T]he Central Hudson standard does not permit us to supplant the precise interests put forward by the State with other suppositions.”).   As the district court made clear, Vermont “does not claim that health or safety concerns prompted the passage of the Vermont Labeling Law,” but instead defends the statute on the basis of “strong consumer interest and the public's ‘right to know’․”  898 F.Supp. at 249.   These interests are insufficient to justify compromising protected constitutional rights.1

Vermont's failure to defend its constitutional intrusion on the ground that it negatively impacts public health is easily understood.   After exhaustive studies, the FDA has “concluded that rBST has no appreciable effect on the composition of milk produced by treated cows, and that there are no human safety or health concerns associated with food products derived from cows treated with rBST.”  898 F.Supp. at 248.   Because bovine somatotropin (“BST”) appears naturally in cows, and because there are no BST receptors in a cow's mammary glands, only trace amounts of BST can be detected in milk, whether or not the cows received the supplement.  Id.  Moreover, it is undisputed that neither consumers nor scientists can distinguish rBST-derived milk from milk produced by an untreated cow.  Id. at 248-49.   Indeed, the already extensive record in this case contains no scientific evidence from which an objective observer could conclude that rBST has any impact at all on dairy products.   It is thus plain that Vermont could not justify the statute on the basis of “real” harms.   See Edenfield, 507 U.S. at 770-71, 113 S.Ct. at 1800.

We do not doubt that Vermont's asserted interest, the demand of its citizenry for such information, is genuine;  reluctantly, however, we conclude that it is inadequate.   We are aware of no case in which consumer interest alone was sufficient to justify requiring a product's manufacturers to publish the functional equivalent of a warning about a production method that has no discernable impact on a final product.   See, e.g., Ibanez, 512 U.S. at ----, 114 S.Ct. at 2090 (invalidating state requirement that Certified Financial Planner (“CFP”) disclose in advertisement that CFP status was conferred by unofficial private organization despite unsubstantiated claim that public might otherwise be misled by CFP's advertisement).   Cf. Riley, 487 U.S. at 797-98, 108 S.Ct. at 2677-78 (holding unconstitutional state requirement that professional fundraisers disclose to prospective donors factual information concerning the percentage of contributions actually passed on to charities notwithstanding the fact that prospective donors might find the truthful information relevant and persuasive).

Although the Court is sympathetic to the Vermont consumers who wish to know which products may derive from rBST-treated herds, their desire is insufficient to permit the State of Vermont to compel the dairy manufacturers to speak against their will.   Were consumer interest alone sufficient, there is no end to the information that states could require manufacturers to disclose about their production methods.   For instance, with respect to cattle, consumers might reasonably evince an interest in knowing which grains herds were fed, with which medicines they were treated, or the age at which they were slaughtered.   Absent, however, some indication that this information bears on a reasonable concern for human health or safety or some other sufficiently substantial governmental concern, the manufacturers cannot be compelled to disclose it.   Instead, those consumers interested in such information should exercise the power of their purses by buying products from manufacturers who voluntarily reveal it.

Accordingly, we hold that consumer curiosity alone is not a strong enough state interest to sustain the compulsion of even an accurate, factual statement, see Riley, 487 U.S. at 797-98, 108 S.Ct. at 2677-78 (compelled disclosure of “fact” is no more acceptable than compelled disclosure of opinion), in a commercial context.   See, e.g., United States v. Sullivan, 332 U.S. 689, 693, 68 S.Ct. 331, 334, 92 L.Ed. 297 (1948) (upholding federal law requiring warning labels on “harmful foods, drugs and cosmetics”) (emphasis added);  see also Zauderer, 471 U.S. at 651, 105 S.Ct. at 2282 (disclosure requirements are permissible “as long as [they] are reasonably related to the State's interest in preventing deception of consumers.”);  In re R.M.J., 455 U.S. 191, 201, 102 S.Ct. 929, 936, 71 L.Ed.2d 64 (1982) (“warning or disclaimer might be appropriately required ․ in order to dissipate the possibility of consumer confusion or deception.”);  Bates v. State Bar of Arizona, 433 U.S. 350, 384, 97 S.Ct. 2691, 2709, 53 L.Ed.2d 810 (1977) (state bar association could not ban advertising that was neither misleading nor deceptive);  Virginia State Bd. of Pharmacy v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, Inc., 425 U.S. 748, 771-72, 96 S.Ct. 1817, 1830-31, 48 L.Ed.2d 346 (1975) (regulation aimed at preventing deceptive or misleading commercial speech would be permissible).   Because Vermont has demonstrated no cognizable harms, see Edenfield, 507 U.S. at 770-71, 113 S.Ct. at 1800, its statute is likely to be held unconstitutional.


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1210635.html
 
I'm familiar with the principle, and agree with the overall scope and presentation of the paper, at least up until the point where they start talking outside of their fields and try to rationalize GMOs being what they define as a "ruin" scenario or "involve total irreversible ruin, such as the extinction of human beings or all life on the planet." I mean, seriously? That's setting the bar way to high, not just for GMOs, but for... well... virtually everything short of a giant asteroid from space, runaway global warming, or peppering the entire planet with nukes. They kind of lost me at attempting to pitch that ball. If they toned back the hyperbole, they're right about the potential spatial scale of the issue and things like cross-breeding. Because places like this exist, I'm not particularly concerned about the cross-breeding issue. That, and there being no documented harms to human health from anything on the market, along with the strict regulations governing production and development of these crops. Now, if we had backyard gardeners doing this stuff and not having any oversight, yeah, I'd be seriously concerned. That is not, however, the system we have. :D

The argument I agree with is that seeing as the potential effects are unknowable, to put an upper limit on potential harms is unfounded. This is not to say the problems will occur, but over a long timescale problems and unintended consequences are inevitable and, by definition, unknowable. I suppose it comes down to a different philosophical position on dealing with unquantifiable risks in complex systems over long time scales.

I also think you have greater faith in regulation and trials than I do. Medicine and medical trials are good examples of how flawed these can be. There are examles of ethical problems with GMO trials also. For example:

http://retractionwatch.com/2015/07/30/golden-rice-paper-pulled-after-judge-rules-for-journal/

Medical trials also frequently overstate benefits, hide negative effects, and publish only trials with positive results. I see no reason why GMO would be any different

In addition, expecting responsible usage of such technologies is unrealistic when money, careers, big business and incompetence come into effect.

I agree with many of the things you said about the environemnt earlier, but differ in that I see this as compounding such problems rather than having the potential to mitigate them. If such problems are to be mitigated then it requires the political will to change current practices.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The argument I agree with is that seeing as the potential effects are unknowable
What nonsense. The potential adverse effects of food genetically modified by rDNA techniques are more "knowable" and much better known than are those of foods whose genomes are modified by conventional breeding, hybridization and radiation techniques.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I am Not very familiar with the debate on GM crops but labelling it gives the consumer the choice as to whether to buy GM or not. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
To be slightly more correct its so dumb people can pay more for inferior products. I have no problem with mandatory labeling and to be honest it is a great way to charge more for something less. Seems like a win win to me.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have no problem with mandatory labeling
You are not able to articulate any rational (or constitutional) reason for mandating special labeling of GM foods, are you?

it is a great way to charge more for something less. Seems like a win win to me.
Who wins by paying more for something less?

Perhaps your whole post is facetious?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
You are not able to articulate any rational (or constitutional) reason for mandating special labeling of GM foods, are you?
I think its silly to force the labeling. It doesn't hurt me if they do. If someone wants to have something labeled and enough people are dumb enough to want it then it doesn't hurt me. Why? Because I will continue to get my genetically modified yellow corn. I will glance at the smaller and inferior corn with a "no gmo" sticker on the side and laugh as walk past it.
Who wins by paying more for something less?

Perhaps your whole post is facetious?
I mean if I grow inferior crops that aren't technically GMO as the food and drug administration states and only have the old fashion genetically modified food and I know that I can sell it to people that will pay double for a product with less nutrition then I have profited greatly. Also I suppose if someone really really really really has a hard on for not eating genetically modified foods then they may get some kind of personal satisfaction out of it.

I have similar feelings towards horoscopes and people who buy magazines and books with in depth horoscope information for the year. I mean its dumb. It does nothing to better your life but someone made money and someone bought something.

If we don't label GMO foods then I equally do not care.
 
What nonsense. The potential adverse effects of food genetically modified by rDNA techniques are more "knowable" and much better known than are those of foods whose genomes are modified by conventional breeding, hybridization and radiation techniques.

Again you are looking at the wrong thing.

That you have greater control over the specific variation, has no connection whatsoevr to how harmful the resulting organism could potentially be.

You are assuming perfect knowledge of the effects of the introduction of a new organism into an ecosystem. The bigger the difference between the new organism and existing similar organisms, the greater the unknown.

Do you believe it is impossible to create a harmful GMO? Or do you believe regulation will be effective enough to prevent this from happening?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Again you are looking at the wrong thing.
False.

That you have greater control over the specific variation, has no connection whatsoevr to how harmful the resulting organism could potentially be.
Utterly false. Your anti-scientific beliefs are nonsense.

You are assuming perfect knowledge of the effects of the introduction of a new organism into an ecosystem.
False.

The bigger the difference between the new organism and existing similar organisms, the greater the unknown.
Then foods whose genomes are modified by conventional breeding and hybridization methods represent "the greater unknown" than foods whose genomes are modified by rDNA techniques.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think its silly to force the labeling. It doesn't hurt me if they do. If someone wants to have something labeled and enough people are dumb enough to want it then it doesn't hurt me. Why? Because I will continue to get my genetically modified yellow corn. I will glance at the smaller and inferior corn with a "no gmo" sticker on the side and laugh as walk past it.
Well, as the Scientific American article (in post #9) notes, mandatory labeling of GM foods apparently drives up prices for all food products (presumably due mainly to the necessity of increased record-keeping and analysis of products), and, further, as the example of the EU shows, mandatory labeling induces producers and manufacturers to simply stop offering GM products because the imposed labeling leads consumers to read "GMO" as poison. (After all, why should the government require the label if there isn't something dangerous about eating "GMO" foods?) This can only lead to the curtailment of research and development of GM foods that provide higher yields, are vitamin- and nutrient-enhanced, and require less water, pesticides and herbicides.
 

Well you never seem to address it or answer any questions asked. Just copy + paste the same thing over and over.

Utterly false. Your anti-scientific beliefs are nonsense.

So it is impossible that GMOs passed as 'safe' could have unintended consequences? Or you fully trust government regulation to protect us because it has been so effective in all other areas of our lives?


Then you will understand our track record of causing great harm by introducing alien plants/animal/etc. into new environments.

Then foods whose genomes are modified by conventional breeding and hybridization methods represent "the greater unknown" than foods whose genomes are modified by rDNA techniques.

Now you are being very anti-scientific. There is thousands of years of evidence for conventional breeding.

Most GMOs have been subject to short term, limited trials, testing for a small number of known variables and isolated from real world conditions. Just like when you get medicines passed as 'safe' under similar conditions, but given long term, less controlled usage and introduced to countless new variables when they enter real world conditions they prove to be harmful in ways never expected.

Also, GMO make far bigger changes. Are you saying conventional breeding is a bigger unknown than utilising the genes of a fish in a tomato?

So which is it a) GMO technology can't possibly cause any harm or b) it could, but government regulation will certainly prevent it from happening?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well you never seem to address it or answer any questions asked. Just copy + paste the same thing over and over.
Your comments are vacuous. To respond to the fact I noted (that "the potential adverse effects of food genetically modified by rDNA techniques are more "knowable" and much better known than are those of foods whose genomes are modified by conventional breeding, hybridization and radiation techniques") by claiming that I "looked at the wrong thing" is to make a comment that is utterly lacking in substance. You are the one who hasn't addressed the facts presented here, such as (again):

No whole food category in history has been as thoroughly examined as GM crops--only chemical food additives receive greater scrutiny. Pre-market food and feed safety assessment is based on internationally recognized approaches and must demonstrate that GM crops are as safe as their conventional counterparts for food and feed use [10–12] and present no unacceptable risk to the environment [13]. The process begins with a comparative assessment to identify similarities (referred to as substantial equivalence) and differences between the newly developed GM crop and a conventional counterpart with a long history of safe use. Any actual or suspected differences then become the focus of the food, feed, and environmental safety assessment. The assessment [10, 11] begins with careful selection of gene source to avoid allergenic and potentially toxic sources. Food and feed assessment generally focuses on safety of the introduced protein. Bioinformatic (DNA and protein sequence) analysis assures lack of homology to allergens or toxins, and heat stability and digestibility analyses ensure a lack of digestive stability. Acute protein toxicity studies as well as 28- or 90-day whole crop studies are routinely performed in rodents, and livestock studies provide additional assurance of nutritional performance. The crop is subjected to detailed compositional analysis, including known toxins and anti-nutrient factors, “proximate analysis” (total protein, carbohydrate, ash, mineral content, etc.), and analysis of fatty acids, amino acids, vitamins, and minerals--all to assure that the composition of the GM crop falls well within the range of expected values for the conventional crop.

For GM crops with altered or novel compositional aspects (e.g., nutritionally modified oils), a comprehensive safety assessment is undertaken for any changes made, considering both individual health and population nutritional impacts. Unanticipated genetic effects can occur with any breeding technique, and the absence of relevant unanticipated effects can be demonstrated by studies to assure proper gene insertion, composition, and agronomic performance. Fifteen years of studies demonstrate considerably more variability among conventional crops due to genetics and environment than results from transgene insertion in a particular variety; recent genomics studies demonstrate that gene insertion produces minor perturbations of overall gene function compared to dramatic differences in expression across crop varieties, locations, and growing conditions (see below).

Despite this scrutiny, concern is often expressed that no long-term studies with GM crops have been performed. While this is not correct [14], it is also important to recognize that DNA, RNA, and protein are normal dietary components. There are no examples of dietary DNA, RNA, or digestible protein having carcinogenic or reproductive toxicity, and long-term testing to detect these outcomes is neither necessary nor informative. Acute toxicity testing is done using sufficiently high dose (up to 2,000-mg protein/kg body weight) to ensure adequate margins of safety (thousands of times greater than intake). To keep this in perspective, recall that there are tens of thousands of proteins in maize alone--hundreds of thousands in a normal diet--none of which have ever been subjected to long-term testing.

Unanticipated genetic effects of GM technology have been alleged to raise food safety issues. It has long been recognized that conventional technologies (which include wide or forced crosses, plant embryo rescue, and chemical or radiation induced mutagenesis) can also result in unanticipated phenomenon and that the risk of GM technologies falls within the range of risks entailed with conventional methods [19]. In the last several years, genomic technology has documented that the GM process itself produces only small changes in overall gene expression and proteomics in the transformed plant when compared to the large degree of variation introduced by natural genomic instability [20] and by conventional breeding processes and environmental effects [20–27].

Food allergy has also been raised as a potential issue in GM crops. GM crops are, of course, as allergenic as conventional crops as no allergenic components have been removed. As of this writing, there has been no documented occurrence of allergy to an inserted GM protein. Approaches to allergenicity assessment in GM crops have been reviewed elsewhere [28]. By way of summary, when selecting proteins for use in GM crops, we avoid known allergenic sources such as tree nuts; using bioinformatic approaches, we avoid known food allergens as well as proteins having sequence similarity (eight or more amino acids) to known food allergens; and proteins are screened for heat stability and poor digestibility, two characteristics often found in allergenic proteins. Food allergy reduction is theoretically feasible using GM technology [29], but has not yet been developed commercially. It is the author’s view that in the unlikely event that a major food allergen is engineered into a GM crop, it would be removed from commercial use; an option we do not have with most existing, naturally occurring allergens. Thus, the GM allergenicity debate appears to place undue focus on a theoretical and remediable risk while major allergenic foods remain unrestricted (albeit labeled) in the market place.

[. . . ]

GM crops have a more than 20-year track record of being grown and used commercially without a single human illness known to be caused by GM food or feed. Moreover, billions of animals have been fed predominantly GM diets for consecutive generations with no evidence that animal health and productivity were affected.​

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4057531/

I challenge you to prove any statement in the above is erroneous.


Then you will understand our track record of causing great harm by introducing alien plants/animal/etc. into new environments.
You haven't cited a single example of any environment suffering "great harm" due to a GM plant.
 
You haven't cited a single example of any environment suffering "great harm" due to a GM plant.

Despite claiming you are not looking at the wrong thing, you again completely miss the point and address the wrong thing by copy pasting the same text. The text was even written by a Monsanto employee, and just like with medicines, most trials are done by companies with a vested interest in demonstrating the safety of their product. Medical trials are known for a) overstating the benefits of their product and b) understating any potential problems caused by their products.

For example, when 'wonder drug' Thalidomide went on sale to the public no one could cite a single example of anyone being done great harm due to Thalidomide. Why? Because trials are not the same as long term, real world usage which is much larger in scale and includes countless more variables that have not been tested. We cannot accurately predict the effects of introducing a new variable into a complex system. Harms may take time to develop and only occur under certain, and possibly rare, situations. Countless things in history have been declared 'safe', only to prove harmful later.

Anyway, seeing as all you do is repeatedly ignore simple questions that require you to actually think for yourself, and can only copy/paste the same thing there's not a great deal of point in continuing.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Despite claiming you are not looking at the wrong thing, you again completely miss the point and address the wrong thing by copy pasting the same text. The text was even written by a Monsanto employee, and just like with medicines, most trials are done by companies with a vested interest in demonstrating the safety of their product. Medical trials are known for a) overstating the benefits of their product and b) understating any potential problems caused by their products.

For example, when 'wonder drug' Thalidomide went on sale to the public no one could cite a single example of anyone being done great harm due to Thalidomide. Why? Because trials are not the same as long term, real world usage which is much larger in scale and includes countless more variables that have not been tested. We cannot accurately predict the effects of introducing a new variable into a complex system. Harms may take time to develop and only occur under certain, and possibly rare, situations. Countless things in history have been declared 'safe', only to prove harmful later.

Anyway, seeing as all you do is repeatedly ignore simple questions that require you to actually think for yourself, and can only copy/paste the same thing there's not a great deal of point in continuing.
So you still can't cite any evidence by which to conclude that GM foods are less safe than foods whose genomes have been modified by conventional breeding, hybridization and radiation techniques. You can't cite any evidence by which to conclude that GM plants have ever caused or are more likely to cause "great harm" to the environment. And you haven't been able to state any rational reason for mandatory labeling of GM foods. Right?
 
So you still can't cite any evidence by which to conclude that GM foods are less safe than foods whose genomes have been modified by conventional breeding,

Good grief, even if you disagree I'd have thought you could have grasped a basic argument by now. Apparently not though...

The argument is that the risk is unknown, and also unknowable. As such, it is prudent to practice precaution as the effects of being wrong could be destructive.

We know that conventional breeding is very safe as we have thousands of years of evidence for this. You however believe that something we have thousands of years of evidence for is more unpredictable than a new technology with a few years of use.

Although I disagree, I can understand if someone believes that a precautionary approach is over-cautious. When someone claims to know that there is no risk whatsoever, then they are simply wrong.

Nature evolves, GMO will evolve in the wild, other parts of the ecosystem will evolve to deal with the presence of these new plants with significantly different properties than the existing ones.

What happens a long way down the line is absolutely unknowable, so if you ask me, it is better to stick with the techniques that have existed for thousands of years as we know these are very safe from experience.

You can't cite any evidence by which to conclude that GM plants have ever caused or are more likely to cause "great harm" to the environment.

Again, the argument is that the risk of the technology may be hidden. According to your logic, Thalidomide was 'safe' until the first birth defect occurred. In truth, it was always dangerous, we just didn't know it at the time though.

You refuse to answer the question as it requires independent thought, but I'll assume you agree that it is at least theoretically possible to design a harmful GMO (correct me if you believe it is impossible).

Each new GMO product needs to be analysed for risk with a trial, before it is considered 'safe'. You assume that this process of regulation will be perfectly effective, even though regulation is not perfectly effective in any other human endeavour. (not to mention you think 9/11 was an 'inside job' yet trust the same people who did this to regulate GMO in the best interests of public safety. Doesn't that strike you as a bit weird?)

If you think trials are so effective at replicating real world conditions, why are so many 'safe' medicines later proved to be harmful?

Each new GMO has a small risk of being harmful, but we can expect hundreds of thousands of GMO over the years and multiple small risks = a very big risk.

And you haven't been able to state any rational reason for mandatory labeling of GM foods. Right?

That their long term safety is unknown is perfectly rational. I know you've read an article and can copy and paste it at will, but we simply do not know. The medical industry gives us a clear example of this, but you like to stick your head in the sand and repeat yourself.

Unfortunately, humans are prone to hubris and a failure to learn from their past mistakes when it turned out that things they 'knew' turned out not to be so.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Unfortunately, humans are prone to hubris and a failure to learn from their past mistakes when it turned out that things they 'knew' turned out not to be so.
This is particularly obvious when profits get involved.
When it is so much more beneficial to a group of powerful people to minimize, ignore, or bribe to get what they want I get really suspicious of efforts to squelch information.
Tom
 
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