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Is there a shred of evidence for atheistic physicalism?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You confuse correlation with causation, because even if idealism were true we'd see a brain/mind correlation. The same question as above I'll pose here so we can cut to the chase: can you allow me physical access to anothers experiences?
No, I do not confuse the two. But the only way to show causation is to look at correlations and make sure you didn't miss a different cause. But that cause would need to be demonstrated via correlations.

The question is how to *test* the difference between physicalism and idealism. Without a test, there is no real difference and the position with the least number of assumptions wins. That means physicalism: we know the physical exists.

And yes, we can, even now, allow limited access to internal states. Some of the technology we have for artificial limbs require the ability to read the intentions of the user. That is access to an internal state.

So correlation = causation because one day we might be able to prove causation in the future? Solid reasoning right there.
No, we have causation because we have extensive evidence of correlation with no evidence for any other cause. if you have actual evidence of a different cause, please speak up.

"There's plenty of evidence, I won't provide a shred though."

The evidence comes from tests from injury and stroke victims, where the type of damage to the brain is related to the specific mental problems experienced. It comes from our current ability to use brain scans to detect mental and emotional state. It comes from our ability to read minds to a limited extent using scanning technology.

Now, what evidence do you have that there is anything else?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
My point about evidence was more that most physicalists simply ignore the evidence, pretending it's not there rather than providing alternatives. You make this same mistake throughout your post. I'll pose the same simple solution I've been giving others, simply allow me physical access to your inner experience.
I’m not clear what you mean when you claim “physicalists” ignore evidence – what evidence do you believe is being ignored? I explained what evidence I see that could support materialism and identified some of the problems I see with any proposed alternatives. What anything I wrote incorrect?

Also, I don’t claim to be a “physicalist” or accept any similar label. I only answered your question about evidence (and a lack thereof) and I specifically stated that I don’t consider it conclusive in any direction.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
"There's plenty of evidence, I won't provide a shred though."

Seriously? You don't accept the evidences of evolution? Or the expanding universe? Or the mounds of evidence that the earth is billions of years old? All of which fly in the face of virtually every religions creation myth...

Of course there is evidence. It just isn't enough for you. I get that.

But I always find it ironic that those who believe in myths handed down from the dark ages are constantly trying to convince us that there isn't enough evidence provided by science. It's not the pot calling the kettle black. It's a black hole calling a sparkler black.
 

Tomyris

Esoteric Traditionalist
No, I do not confuse the two. But the only way to show causation is to look at correlations and make sure you didn't miss a different cause. But that cause would need to be demonstrated via correlations.

The question is how to *test* the difference between physicalism and idealism. Without a test, there is no real difference and the position with the least number of assumptions wins. That means physicalism: we know the physical exists.

And yes, we can, even now, allow limited access to internal states. Some of the technology we have for artificial limbs require the ability to read the intentions of the user. That is access to an internal state.


No, we have causation because we have extensive evidence of correlation with no evidence for any other cause. if you have actual evidence of a different cause, please speak up.



The evidence comes from tests from injury and stroke victims, where the type of damage to the brain is related to the specific mental problems experienced. It comes from our current ability to use brain scans to detect mental and emotional state. It comes from our ability to read minds to a limited extent using scanning technology.

Now, what evidence do you have that there is anything else?


We don't have certainty of anything, though. Science is built on statistical correlation, not absolute proof. Observation is not a substitute for the experience of consciousness, and the outside world--which is an uncertain observation only--is therefore unknowable in fact.

It is possible, normal and typical in science to perform statistical analysis, draw conclusions from the outcome, and therefore advance a general probability of what a model of this physical environment may look like. But it's not knowledge and it's not certainty in philosophical terms.

The longer I have worked in research and seen the foundations of science, the less I believe it can explain anything at all. It's just an aggregate body of likelihoods which produces observable positive developments in the physical world often enough to demonstrate soundness for the method, no different than a skilled craftswoman building a boat which can float, quite reliably, but never according to an absolute design. That makes it neither certain nor fact. The Scientific Method just serves as an aggregator for useful observations in terms of utility in the observed world.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You don't even know the definition of placebo.

You don't want to learn anything you just want your views to be right.

When you actually care about what's true we can talk.

Did you look at the scientific study I linked you to?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It's really rather simple: both mind and matter seem to exist, and there is no known mechanism by which one causes the other.

Based on the present objective verifiable evidence there is no other known source of the mind and consciousness. We can even see the progressive evolution of the consciousness and the mind in the animal kingdom.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The evidence for philosophical naturalism remains methodological naturalism. It also remains that the belief or non belief in non material worlds is based on philosophical assumptions with no support from science, which is neutral to such philosophical claims.

Scientific research cited to support metaphysical conclusions of the existence of non-material worlds either require metaphysical assumptions, and/or likely pleading 'argument of ignorance' that science can not explain at present certain phenomena therefore . . .
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You've solved the hard problem of consciousness? Can I see your data?

Oh, and here you go genius, maybe YOU should try google :)

Pleading classic 'argument from ignorance' where you believe science cannot 'solve the hard problem of consciousness' therefore . . .

I believe science has come along way to explaining the relationship between the brain, and consciousness and the mind, and the evolution of the brain, and consciousness and the mind.

Google, google, and google more gets you nowhere,


Simply 'no cigar' the placebo effect does not support your case, unless again you are 'arguing from ignorance' that because science cannot presently explain this effect, therefore . . .
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Based on the present objective verifiable evidence there is no other known source of the mind and consciousness. We can even see the progressive evolution of the consciousness and the mind in the animal kingdom.

You're right, we know both mind and matter exist, and have no method by which to explain one rising for the other. The physicalist then goes to take it on face that one day we will have an answer and it will be a mechanism to support consciousness from the brain. Sorry bud, I don't make such omniscient leaps of faith.

Real academic scientific studies do not support your assertions.

If you repeat this enough maybe it'll become true!

Pleading classic 'argument from ignorance' where you believe science cannot 'solve the hard problem of consciousness' therefore . . .

I believe science has come along way to explaining the relationship between the brain, and consciousness and the mind, and the evolution of the brain, and consciousness and the mind.

Google, google, and google more gets you nowhere,



Simply 'no cigar' the placebo effect does not support your case, unless again you are 'arguing from ignorance' that because science cannot presently explain this effect, therefore . . .

An argument for ignorance because I refuse to make a leap of faith that in the future we can prove physicalism? Lol what a joke.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You're right, we know both mind and matter exist, and have no method by which to explain one rising for the other. The physicalist then goes to take it on face that one day we will have an answer and it will be a mechanism to support consciousness from the brain. Sorry bud, I don't make such omniscient leaps of faith.

I believe the present objective verifiable evidence is the mind and consciousness arises from the mind.


If you repeat this enough maybe it'll become true!

Need not repeat it to be a valid evaluation of the conclusions of existing science. Yes, all the answers are not resolved, but beyond the objective verifiable evidence for the relationship between the brain, and the mind and consciousness, you have anecdotal conjecture that there is a metaphysical relationship with non-physical worlds.

An argument for ignorance because I refuse to make a leap of faith that in the future we can prove physicalism? Lol what a joke.

First, science does not prove anything. All science can do is falsify theories and hypothesis concerning the physical nature of our existence, and this is all we have concerning the relationship between the brain and the mind and consciousness.

An 'argument from ignorance' remains a fallacy for any argument involving science or logic.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm well aware not all atheists are physicalist, materialist, naturalist, etc, but I'm specifically talking to this common subcategory of atheists. I want to know if there's any solid support/evidence or reasoning for your position. Literally anything at all. Usually there are only two responses. First is a "lack of evidence," which itself isn't evidence at all. People also tend to confuse "I'm unconvinced" with "that's not evidence," but even "I'm not convinced" is a simply a subjective feeling, an appeal to your own emotion. The other is simply "prove otherwise," but physicalism is not a default position, and it's specifically physicalism being put forth, the asker is not making some claim.

So beside a subjective appeal (unconvinced) and dodging the question (prove otherwise), is there any evidence or reasoning to support a purely "physical" universe without any gods currently posited, knowingly to you, by human beings?

Quite the unintentional comedy, this OP.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Not at all, there is extensive evidence from the mere facts of things like property dualism to things like self-regulation, meditation, dreams, placebos without deception, etc.
As a nurse, wanna know how to tell a placebo helping some psychosomatic dysfunction and a treatment for something real? If you give the placebo and the patient is getting worse (or at least, no change) ... it's real.

Dreams are kind of like simulations that can use novel or previously experienced imagery. They can be influenced by external physical stimuli (drugs/alcohol, music, etc).

Self-regulation and meditation are variants of biofeedback, learning how to assess and control (as well as one can) things like pain and emotional states. Wouldn't want to use it after being shot or something, but that's not what it's good at anyway.

The evidence comes from tests from injury and stroke victims, where the type of damage to the brain is related to the specific mental problems experienced. It comes from our current ability to use brain scans to detect mental and emotional state. It comes from our ability to read minds to a limited extent using scanning technology.
Exactly. The mind can be played like a harp. The brain is quite obviously a primary component.
 

Ricktheheretic

"Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law"
"mat,"
's

I want to ask "what is the difference between the physical or material and the non-physical or non-material?" Everything that exists must be composed of some substance. I remember from a particular philosophy book that there used to be a debate about what everything is made of. The question asked: "what is the substance of existence?" There were two schools of thought 1. idealism, 2. materialism. I understand Plato was the representative of the first: all that really (ultimately, without-end) exists is "idea," or "mind," or "spirit." According to Plato (student of Socrates) the physical world existed after the non-physical "ideal" world and was fashioned after it's likeness in an attempt to redeem it, like the Gnostic demiurge modeled chaos into the form of things in the Aeon (world) above. Plato taught a morality based on self-denial and obedience to enlightened philosopher kings in a perfect "Republic" based on an order above. Aristotle (student of Plato) represented the second view: all that exists is matter, what is physical. God, the "nous" or "mind" that created physical creatures exists out somewhere, and is a superior being (like a man) who has no concern for humans and this world. Aristotelian ethics is about developing what is within the self most fully, mostly finding one's place in society and being kind to fellow men. Death means death and no reward or punishment is promised in Aristotle's philosophy, just like the Epicureans who saw creation as the result of colliding atoms in space and life as the quest for earthly contentedness. In contrast you have the school of Xeno and the Stoics, who stressed moral living and the existence of a divine being who placed a living soul: "fire" or "ether" within each human being and created the four material elements which make up the physical world. In the end most people agreed on the existence of 2 kinds of substance, except atheists, who see matter as all that exists, and Brahmans & Buddhists who view all matter as "maya" or illusion and spirit as the only reality. But what is the difference between the 2 substances? Benedict Spinoza, an outcast Jew from Holland, posited the existence of a third substance that makes up both matter and spirit. This third substance is God, and everything is a manifestation of God.

My original intent for this post was to demonstrate something, that is that "what things are made of" doesn't have to be just physical. Maybe there is something besides what science recognizes as physical that exists within our universe. Radio waves don't have the same qualities as other physical things, none the less they are a form of energy as recognized by physics.

Physical -
adjective
1.
of or relating to the body:
physical exercise.
2.
of or relating to that which is material:
the physical universe; the physical sciences.
3.
noting or pertaining to the properties of matter and energy other than those peculiar to living matter. Dictionary.com

What if some kind of "energy," or "substance" exists that we cannot perceive even through the most complex instruments? What if there is something that takes up space in our universe (like matter and energy) but physicists can't ever know about it? Would it be just a different form energy and thus physical? There are things bouncing around all the time that we can't perceive but that devices called radios and satellites pick up on.
One of my anti/heroes, Aleister Crowley, might have asked "what makes the acausal universe different from the causal universe?" What makes the "substance" or "stuff" that makes up the uncaused, uncreated "spiritual" universe different from the "substance" or "stuff" of the caused, created "physical" universe? According to Crowley everything occupies the same space. The acausal and causal universes exist together separated by a gap or "abyss." Thelemapedia: The Encyclopedia of Thelema & Magick | Abyss
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How is this not you being unconvinced? You've claimed that methodological naturalism is so true, but still haven't provided more than the fact that you're not convinced by "philosophical naturalism."

First,I do not consider Methodological Naturalism 'so true.' I believe it works because it is consistent and testable. Philosophical and Theological claims are NOT testable by any methods that consider objective physical evidence.

I've studied all but language, and do not see your conclusion as somehow obvious. I didn't see your thread, life is a rollercoaster for most other forumers I'm sure, but the good thing is since you've already typed up this evidence you should be able to easily repeat it here.

Actually, no the obvious is a vague issue to introduce here. Need more explanation concerning your objections
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I clearly defined X, "atheistic physicalism."
The problem remains that atheistic physicalism is a philosophical is based on the assumption that only the physical exists, like all philosophical and theological beliefs are not subject to definitive 'proofs' without 'subjective' assumptions that become circular arguments and arguing from ignorance, and NOT based on objective evidence.

You need to differentiate between 'atheistic physicalism?' and 'physicalism?' Are they the same, or do you mean the difference between philosophical naturalism and methodological naturalism. You need to make your argument clear.

If you believe in other worlds beyond the physical the problem bites you as well as atheists. There is no objective evidence that other worlds exist nor not exist.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
's

I want to ask "what is the difference between the physical or material and the non-physical or non-material?" Everything that exists must be composed of some substance. I remember from a particular philosophy book that there used to be a debate about what everything is made of. The question asked: "what is the substance of existence?" There were two schools of thought 1. idealism, 2. materialism. I understand Plato was the representative of the first: all that really (ultimately, without-end) exists is "idea," or "mind," or "spirit." According to Plato (student of Socrates) the physical world existed after the non-physical "ideal" world and was fashioned after it's likeness in an attempt to redeem it, like the Gnostic demiurge modeled chaos into the form of things in the Aeon (world) above. Plato taught a morality based on self-denial and obedience to enlightened philosopher kings in a perfect "Republic" based on an order above. Aristotle (student of Plato) represented the second view: all that exists is matter, what is physical. God, the "nous" or "mind" that created physical creatures exists out somewhere, and is a superior being (like a man) who has no concern for humans and this world. Aristotelian ethics is about developing what is within the self most fully, mostly finding one's place in society and being kind to fellow men. Death means death and no reward or punishment is promised in Aristotle's philosophy, just like the Epicureans who saw creation as the result of colliding atoms in space and life as the quest for earthly contentedness. In contrast you have the school of Xeno and the Stoics, who stressed moral living and the existence of a divine being who placed a living soul: "fire" or "ether" within each human being and created the four material elements which make up the physical world. In the end most people agreed on the existence of 2 kinds of substance, except atheists, who see matter as all that exists, and Brahmans & Buddhists who view all matter as "maya" or illusion and spirit as the only reality. But what is the difference between the 2 substances? Benedict Spinoza, an outcast Jew from Holland, posited the existence of a third substance that makes up both matter and spirit. This third substance is God, and everything is a manifestation of God.

As I understand it, there are four schools of thought here, not just materialism and idealism, that is, that all of reality is made of one substance - matter in the first case, from which mind emerges as an epiphenomon (think Hobbes), and mind is the fundamental reality in the second, from which matter (or the experience of matter) is derived (think Berkeley).

You alluded to the third monistic possibility with your reference to Spinoza, neutral monism, which posits that both mind and matter are derivative and arise as different manifestations of a more fundamental substance unseen to us. We don't need to call this "God." A substance need not be conscious to fulfill this role.

The fourth position isn't a form of monism at all, but so-called Cartesian dualism. Descartes called mind and matter radically different and unrelated substances that are somehow coordinated, his solution to the mind-body problem..

There is no way to decide among these four. They are all logically possible, and none of them can be ruled in or out. We tend to have preferences - I like neutral monism - but they are merely unsupportable hunches or intuitions. I can't support my preference, or even explain why it is my preference.

Given that, the only defensible position one can take is agnosticism, or the suspension of judgment about an undecidable proposition.

To bring this back to the OP, material monism is essentially synonymous with physicalism, or more properly philosophical physicalism, and both are essentially synonymous with materialism, which is an unfortunate and dated term arising from a time when it was thought that all reality was matter (atoms) and empty space. Once energy and then force/force fields were elucidated, the term became obsolete and was upgraded to physicalism, which the idea that matter,energy, force, space and time are the elements of reality..

The term philoshical physicalism exists to distinguish the metaphysical position that physical reality is all that there is, or underlies all that there is, from methodological physicalism, which isn't a philosophy at all, but the acknowledgement that the physical realm is all that is accessible to our inquiries into the nature of reality whether there be more than the physical or not.

And now to answer the OP: There is no evidence for (philosophical) physicalism.

There is evidence of the physical, but not that that is all that there is, or that the physical is the fundamental reality, that is, that it isn't derivative from mind or a neutral precursor to mind and matter. Asserting otherwise is making a claim to knowledge that one cannot possibly have - a condition called faith, as when one asserts that a god exists rather than using words like "seems likely" or "I believe."

As stated earlier, the logically defensible position regarding the nature of the fundamental substance or substances comprising reality is agnosticism, not (philosophical) physicalism.

Most of us rational skeptics are empiricists, an epistemological position, but not physicalism, which is a metaphysical position. That may be why 1137 has been having difficulty getting anybody take the position for which he wants somebody to offer evidence in defense.
 
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