Is there anything in the concepts of deity that is not arbitrary?

[LuisDantas]

If one's gods are not an expression of one's values, well... it is worth asking whether or not they are truly one's gods. Trying to pretend you value something is very hard and does not work very well.

I so agree. It was very odd to go through training for eucharisty when I was not even interested in trying to see Jesus as my God.

 

[Quintessence]

What is valuable to me about theism is when it is a deliberate exploration and identification of what it is that you value. You then identify those as your gods, and construct meaningful practices to honor them and give thanks to them. This approach I have to theism is largely why I get so perplexed by both atheism and anti-theism. Why would a person not want to construct meaningful practices around things they find sacred or valuable? Don't we all do that? Whether or not you use the word "god" to describe the sacred things or "theism" to describe the process, or "religion" to label the rituals is honestly irrelevant to me. Nevertheless, I feel that this process is what theism should be about, and religion is then the framework that supports expression of meaningfulness and sacredness.

No doubt there are both theists and atheists who disagree with me on this. And perhaps there are better words to use, other ways of expressing things. In the end, I think many of the things we humans do are not so different from each other. I know of no atheist who doesn't have sacred things, valued things. I don't care that they don't call those their gods. They have sources of meaningfulness, and probably even have rituals and stories they tell about it. Sharing the stories is fun. Connecting beyond the language barriers and the different ways we see things can be challenging. More challenging is that we have different values, and that some people take offense if you do not like the same things they do. I mean, obviously green is the best color... everyone should value it and post in the color green. And I will convert all of you to greenism, and raise you in the greenist faith. There are no other colors but green!

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, in what you said I agree, ...I still don't quit get what the question is, I'm a bit slow I suppose lol.

Allow me to try to put it in another way.

If a random person tells me that X is a deity to him or her, and assuming that there is no actual lying involved, doesn't that in fact make X a deity for that person?

If I for some reason wanted to challenge that claim... would that even make sense? Can another person truly have the power to "veto" someone else's choice of god? It may look absurd to others, it may even be demonstrably absurd by some criteria or another. But does it matter at the end of the day?

I think not. I may not care about someone else's deity, but I have no means and no power (and ultimately I should not have much of a motivation either) to deny the legitimacy of that choice of deity.

 

[Baladas]

I agree. I rarely challenge someone's claims about their chosen deities. I view those as at least subjectively true.
For Person A, their god really is a god no matter whether anyone else agrees or not.

 

[JRMcC]

I don't think so.

We may and often have to choose to restrict ourselves to some family of conceptions of deities in order to even meaningfully talk about them.

But when push comes to shove, deities may or may not have some sort of humanly understandable attributes; may have or lack a role in the creation of existence; may have or lack a plan for it; may be symbolic or literal; may be finite or infinite; natural or supernatural; mundane or cosmic.

In short, there is no clear requisite or restriction for anything at all being considered a deity, except perhaps that someone must raise the matter and declare whatever a deity.

What do you think?

It doesn't have to be. I think we should change the way we talk about theism, atheism, pantheism, God, ect. I tried to make that case in a thread.

 

[psychoslice]

Allow me to try to put it in another way.

If a random person tells me that X is a deity to him or her, and assuming that there is no actual lying involved, doesn't that in fact make X a deity for that person?

If I for some reason wanted to challenge that claim... would that even make sense? Can another person truly have the power to "veto" someone else's choice of god? It may look absurd to others, it may even be demonstrably absurd by some criteria or another. But does it matter at the end of the day?

I think not. I may not care about someone else's deity, but I have no means and no power (and ultimately I should not have much of a motivation either) to deny the legitimacy of that choice of deity.

Yes I understand clearly now, and that I suppose is true, but in truth it doesn't make it right, its like a child who believes with all his heart that there is a Santa, to him there is, but in truth there isn't, well at least a real Santa.

 

[George-ananda]

What do you think?

I think that as thinking and education increases that we will realize God, as separate from All, begins to lose sense.

 

[psychoslice]

I think that as thinking and education increases that we will realize God, as separate from All, begins to lose sense.

Yep, myself and many others are already there.

 

[suncowiam]

Do you mean is there a uniqueness of one god compared to another? Possibly having a trait that is not generalized among the Deities?

 

[psychoslice]

Do you mean is there a uniqueness of one god compared to another? Possibly having a trait that is not generalized among the Deities?

What Deity, what God, is there such thing ?.

 

[Kirran]

Now, I haven't read past the OP. But I think that all attributes are arbitrary. I call the Self/Brahman/Existence God, but that name is even arbitrary.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm pretty sure that gods are purely human projections, based on wishful thinking and the need for meaning and comfort. Anthropomorphic imaginings.
But if such beliefs help people sleep better at night, well that's fine.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

I
Is there anything in the concepts of deity that is not arbitrary?
don't think so.

dictionary definition of Arbitary ; Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle:


to my understanding the Deity is an embodiment of a principle therefore canot be considdered Arbitary.

In short, there is no clear requisite or restriction for anything at all being considered a deity, except perhaps that someone must raise the matter and declare whatever a deity.

What do you think?

that we all have a different understanding of the term Deity ?

to me it is the embodiment of a principle .

 

[Rick O'Shez]

to me it is the embodiment of a principle .

And how would you describe the principle?

 

[godnotgod]

God cannot be encapsulated by concept, as God is not a thing, but an experience, but not an experience of conditioned mentality, rather one of unconditioned mind; a transformation of consciousness. In this respect, there is nothing arbitrary about God, but God is The Absolute.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you mean is there a uniqueness of one god compared to another? Possibly having a trait that is not generalized among the Deities?

I don't know who this question is meant to.

In any case, what I mean is that it is the devotee that established his deities' status as gods.

There is no other requisite, not even consistency or coherence of belief.

What is a god? A god is whatever someone finds inspiration in and decides to regard as a god.

It may be, or be perceived as, a lot of other things as well, of course. On a strictly personal, customized level.

In a way, it is the triumph of henotheism to its supreme degree: god manifests however the devotee chooses to allow itself to.

In another, it is also the triumph of secularism: gods are created by the devotees and have no obvious external existence or meaning.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm pretty sure that gods are purely human projections, based on wishful thinking and the need for meaning and comfort. Anthropomorphic imaginings.
But if such beliefs help people sleep better at night, well that's fine.

... as long as they don't feel bound to disturb anyone else's sleep in order to fulfill their beliefs, isn't that what you mean?

 

[LuisDantas]

God cannot be encapsulated by concept, as God is not a thing, but an experience, but not an experience of conditioned mentality, rather one of unconditioned mind; a transformation of consciousness. In this respect, there is nothing arbitrary about God, but God is The Absolute.

That may well be true. But it is undeniable that in practice we people do have concepts of God and employ them often. How do you propose we deal with them?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

... as long as they don't feel bound to disturb anyone else's sleep in order to fulfill their beliefs, isn't that what you mean?

One can always hope.

 

[idav]

I did not. May you elaborate?

Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent for starters and those aspects are built into nature.