Is there really a God?

[grainne]

I am new here, and I am not sure where to post this or where to begin. I used to be in a yogi group, but due to the behavior of a guru I left Hinduism and went to Buddhism. I am rather lost now.

When I used to meditate I had an experience in which my mind expanded and I was enveloped in Love. I believed that to be God. then I went to Buddhism and they told me that it was dangerous to allow your mind to expland, that it could cause insanity, and that my experience was just a hallucnation, that there was no God, no soul.

I lost faith in my experience and in the belief in a God or a soul. Can anyone explain to me why the Buddhist concept is wrong in this case? I believe that in order to reincarnate you have to have a carrier. Now I don't even know if I believe in reincarnation or even karma.

And why is it that I would believe a Buddhist over the Hindu faith? I don't know. Why is it that I lost faith in all religion? That is too long of a story.

 

[Storm]

I believe there is a God. I also believe that none of us understand it, and all religions are flawed.

As for your specific experiences... that doesn't sound like any form of Buddhism I'm familiar with, and my first reaction is to think you just got a bad group. In fact, it sounds like they were jealous. Also, the Buddha himself was silent on the question of God, and there are some forms of Buddhism which are decidedly theistic.

Don't trust the Buddhist over the Hindu. Don't trust the Hindu over the Buddhist. Trust yourself.

 

[Seven]

Some times it's good to be lost for a while - it helps us become aware of the limits of our knowledge and understanding. It's a chance to take a step back from everything we thought we knew and look at the world as though we are seeing it for the first time.

Personally I think losing faith frees the mind. There is nothing to be gained from believing things without evidence.

I wish you well

 

[grainne]

I thought it was good to be lost for a while. But right now it doesn't feel that way.

It wasn't just knowing that there was a God, and I don't mean the God of the bible or koran, etc. But Consciousness, which turned me to reading quantum physics, which caused me to realize that that is too deep of a subject to me. But then I just wanted to really know if we exist after we die, if even our animals exist? I began reading books on reincarnation again, but from a medical type perspective. It helped some. I knew that I couldn't connect to Buddhism after joining. It was too hard to understand, and I found I still believed in Hinduism, but there were certain teachings in Hinduism that I couldn't accept either, still it spoke more to my heart.

I had to put our dog to sleep yesterday, and I have been so sad about it and wondered if she is still alive. That is what caused me to come here, but it has been on my mind a lot lately, trying to understand the world. Who can really know? But when my mind explaned that day in meditation I really knew then that there was a God, and I thought, "No one can every take this experience away from me. No one can tell me again that there isn't a God of love and that this God loves everyone no matter what they have done. There is no judgement from this God." And yet the Buddhist did in a way, because I am back to wondering.

Seven, you are correct in many ways, maybe in all ways. I feel free from religion, and that is wonderful to me. Being in various religions caused me to back away from all. I joined different ones for peace of mind, and they kept wrecking my peace. I feel so much more peace now without them. Except for the not knowing.

Storm, the Buddhist group I was with were very kind. They helped me in regards to how it was to be in abusive religions, but then it wasn't good to be told that my experiences meant nothing. In fact, it stopped me from meditating. Then I read of dangers of meditation and decided against it altogether, that is, unless some others told me how that was wrong. But then I felt, why meditate if I can't trust my experiences? Why meditate if there is no God since I began meditation in the first place because I wanted to know if there were a God? The book I was reading at the time said you could find out in meditation, and I thought I had.

 

[zenzero]

Friend grainne,

Welcome to RF!.

Is there really a God?

Really have no idea. Some say there IS; but never introduced me.
So can only respond stating: MAYBE.
Are they One with TRUTH? : MAYBE?

Love & rgds

 

[Storm]

Storm, the Buddhist group I was with were very kind. They helped me in regards to how it was to be in abusive religions, but then it wasn't good to be told that my experiences meant nothing. In fact, it stopped me from meditating. Then I read of dangers of meditation and decided against it altogether, that is, unless some others told me how that was wrong. But then I felt, why meditate if I can't trust my experiences? Why meditate if there is no God since I began meditation in the first place because I wanted to know if there were a God? The book I was reading at the time said you could find out in meditation, and I thought I had.

Well, I feel a little bit better about the group. Still, what can you trust if not your own experiences? Go with your own perceptions.

 

[no_spoon]

Welcome, grainne. My sincere condolences on the passing of your dog.

As for God, I could ramble on and on, but I won't. Instead I will try to give you a "flavor" of what I believe by making references to everyday things. This is not meant to convince you or prove I am right, but rather to suggest ideas for you to explore and see what you think.

#1 - I think it was an old movie "Vision Quest" where a high school student asked a wise teacher what he thought of some oriental philosophy (I forget which) and the teacher turned it back on him and said "What do you think?" He also responded with a question: "Can a billion people be wrong?" To which the teacher quickly responded: "Frequently!" That scene has stuck in my mind for years. For myself, *in spiritual or philosophical matters*, I try not to let the number of people who believe something, the force with which they believe, or the number of years a belief has been held unduly sway me.

#2 - kind of the opposite of the above, I believe that people react differently, and sometimes worse, when they are being controlled by an idea. Wars are often based on ideas. Mob mentality doesn't just happen when people are in the streets; it can happen in offices, churches, colleges and governments. Also, I think it's unlikely God shares our ideas (if for no other reason than ours keep changing). I think coming closer to God (if you come to believe) might help rub off and lead to better ideas.

#3 - be careful when deciding whether God exists to also realize there is no consensus on the term God (I think your post shows you have already considered that)

#4 - based on the above I think it is important to be careful about where we put our time and attention as we consider the question of God. In other words, it's better to find some really good authors who try to present a balanced view of what God's nature might be and/or whether he/she/it exists, and then make your own decision, than to read books written by authors each of which is trying to convince you of their opinion. You can always shift to some of the other authors once you have "surveyed" and decided what (for you) seems to hold the most merit.

#5 - personally I believe that religion is "orthogonal" to our relationship with God (i.e., it crosses it at a point, but really lies in another dimension, that of our social relationships and responsibilities, rather than our beliefs and experience of God).

For what it's worth that's my 2 cents. If any of my comments interest you let me know and I will expand on them. Otherwise I will just wish you peace and success in your journey.

 

[jacobweymouth]

When I used to meditate I had an experience in which my mind expanded and I was enveloped in Love. I believed that to be God. then I went to Buddhism and they told me that it was dangerous to allow your mind to expland, that it could cause insanity, and that my experience was just a hallucnation, that there was no God, no soul.

I wouldn't let anyone other then God tell you whether or not an experience you had was from him or not.

 

[Katzpur]

I had to put our dog to sleep yesterday, and I have been so sad about it and wondered if she is still alive.

I'm so sorry about your dog, grainne. Putting a dog to sleep has got to be one of the hardest things we have to do in this life. For what it's worth, though, my religion teaches that she is still alive. Her spirit has not ceased to exist. It has just temporarily been separated from her physical body. Someday she, like you, will be resurrected. Her spirit will re-enter her body, but her body will be immortal. She won't ever have to die or be sick or in pain again. Neither will you.

 

[grainne]

What wonderful posts. Thank you all. Thanks for the condolences on my dog too.

I think I have spent too much time on the anti religious, anti God forums.

I wouldn't let anyone other then God tell you whether or not an experience you had was from him or not.

I like that answer too.

No spoon. What wise words, and I noticed that you are catholic. You just think differently than what I would imagine.

Number 3. It is that I don't believe in a God of judgment as presented in the Bible. But I don't wish to elaborate on this. But there has to be a reason for all this, a God that may have created but not one that answers prayers. I don't know.

#4. What books would these be?

#5. I like that concept. When I was a Jehovah's Witness I used to believe that you had to be a JW in order to be saved. When I was a Hindu I began to believe that it didn't matter what religion you were in. When I joined Buddhism I was told that everyone else was heretical. I couldn't accept that. I tend to think that it doesn't matter to some degree what religion you are in. Some are harmful to others; some are not.

I thought quantum physics would have the answer for me, and it did in some ways, but then since I didn't understand most, what I read did not stick.

All my life I have had a hard time excepting my own intuition, even though it had proven to be correct after a time. My sister is the same, and we think it had to do with our mother, but we can't figure out how and it would serve no purposed to know because it is still there.

When My dog became predator aggressive and killed another dog, my husband knew right away that he had to be put to sleep. I lamented over it, saying I could change his behavior, and I tried Caesar's way before this happened, and with me and on a leash he was fine. no aggressive. But my back was turned, and I have talked to maybe 15 people telling me I did the right thing, and I only think of how I took a life, a dear life. And I noticed that I no longer trusted that there was an afterlife for him, and if that is so, then there is none for me. And so I realized that I had put myself in a quandary.

Still, what can you trust if not your own experiences?

so true. but to believe it.

Zen, maybe is hard to live with. I know when I questioned the abbot in Buddhism about God he would only say that the Buddha didn't say, that it doesn't matter, that only enlightenment matters, that questioning doesn't get you there. And I thought, but all my life I have had a love for God. It does matter. The only reason why I decided to learn meditation was to see if there were a God, and if this God really loved everyone. The Jehovah's Witnesses took me away from God because when I did something wrong they threw me out and said that I was dead in God's eyes. A hard thing to live with when you love God. The experience I had told me that they were wrong. And then my Buddhist experience.

 

[no_spoon]

Hello again Grainne. Since you expressed an interest in some of my thoughts, here's a bit more detail:

So it seems we agree that a definition of the term God is an important predecessor to the decision on God's existence. I would mention there are many tough issues in this arena. For instance, if God is good why is there pain? Which I believe is tightly linke to the question of whether God can make a mountain he cannot move (or more relevant to our lives, is he/she like a surgeon trying to improve us but he cannot just *poof* like a magician improve us)? Which is related to the creator but not currently involved (or not interested) view of God some hold. Does the existence of God preclude true self-determination/free will? Which leads into dualism, etc. etc.

This thread has touched on the importance of personal experience in your search for God. Personally, I think this is the razor's edge. If this Universe is purely mechanistic and there is no creator and nothing exists but natural law (cause-effect), then my personal experience should be explainable *if I include an allowance for personal bias*. In other words, if I don't assume that every pretty sunrise is a message from God, and I don't assume that all my talents are a direct gift from the creator, and I realize that coincidences do exist (as in the "Confirmation Bias" phenomenon), then if what remains after subtracting all that out is just a plain boring existence with no mysteries, then atheism is defensible. Personally, I just find this Universe and our place in it to be suspicious. It's like when a cop walks onto a crime scene and things are just a little too obvious, too perfect and explainable. Others may disagree, of course.

Yes, I am an unusual Catholic (but there is more variation than some realize). I was raised a Catholic and have never found a reason to leave, and they have not kicked me out. There have been many great Catholics (i.e., people who have helped the world in general) and Catholic institutions act as safety nets for many in need. I could also go on about problems in the Church, but there appears to be problems in many religions! The Quaker movement would be the one I would investigate next if I felt any desire to change. And, as I said, I see religion as related to but not essential to a discussion of God.

As far as books go, I may have (but should not have) given the impression I had an authoritative list of such books. I was emphasizing the importance of "surveying" the God question by seeking out authors who are more balanced. I will go out on a limb and list some authors that have helped me, but others may disagree:

C.S.Lewis was an atheist who later became a Christian. In various books he described both his struggles and his reasoning, and attempted to discard fanciful notions of God that make no sense. I would suggest "Miracles" and "Mere Christianity".

I always recommend "Is God a Taoist" by Raymond M. Smullyan (Google will help you). It's short and will get you thinking about the nature of God and our assumptions about morality.

The book "Joshua" by Joseph Girzone is a fictional treatment of an informal visit by Jesus Christ into a small town in the 20th century. He refuses to be controlled by the people (and later church authorities) who don't like how he attends services at all of the town's churches and temples. I think it gives a perspective on how God views "religion" and I don't believe you need to believe in Jesus Christ per se, you can just equate "Joshua" with "God in disguise".

If you want to get into deep questions about who we are and what it means for us to say we have "experienced" something, you could look into "The Mind's I" which is a collection of essays by various writers, edited by Hofstadter and Dennett.

I hope some of this helped.

 

[grainne]

I think what I have a hard time believing if I think enough about it, is that experiences in meditaton are hallucinations, especially since others have had similar experiences. My mind expanded, I was in a larger consciousness. and an atheist cannot ever explain that outside of saying it was a hallucination.

When I think of Darwin's beliefs it seems like I can say that this God, this Consciousness, could have put everything in motion and it could be that evolution was the way in which is was done. Or somehow it was guided. But I don't see this God that is in the Old Testament. Except to say, if we are all One, if we are that Consciousness, then we are that vengeful God at times and that God of Love at other times.

It seems to me that the Catholic church has really evolved over the years. I had a friend that was a Catholic and who meditated. I like how the Catholics help others as well, and interesting enough I had been reading a book by a Quaker minister, just little bedtime type of stories to me. There are no Quakers where I live, but I had thought about them. I even thought about the Catholics, not to join but to attend because I like the singing and the rituals.

Yes, problems in all religions. I find I have to learn to let go of expecting a perfect religious organization.

I like your list of books. Thanks.

I tried reading Dawson, but somehow it didn't feel right. First he went into the harm religion has caused, as if there would be no wars if it were not for religion, and I thought, "You want to make a bet?"

And then he tried to explain Darwin's theory and how it works, and it made no sense. I gave up on it. But I cannot see the world as mechanical, as materialism, and maybe that is where my experience has actually saved me after all. Just knowing that there is a higher consciousness due from experience has changed that. And maybe I can believe in a God again, but a different definition than that of the Old Testament, which definition I threw away years ago. But then as I said, Maybe, if we are God like the Hindus teach, then we are also that Old Testament God.

 

[Storm]

I think what I have a hard time believing if I think enough about it, is that experiences in meditaton are hallucinations, especially since others have had similar experiences. My mind expanded, I was in a larger consciousness. and an atheist cannot ever explain that outside of saying it was a hallucination.

Good. You shouldn't believe that. Science has disproved it. Mystical experiences are neurologically distinct.

 

[grainne]

I may not have worded that last post of mine correctly, because what I am saying is that mystical experiences are not just neurological problems. These experiences are deep and change people. Even past life experiences change people. Science cannot prove that they are hallucinations. If they are, then maybe this life is also. Maybe I have more belief in altered states than I imagined.

 

[Storm]

I may not have worded that last post of mine correctly, because what I am saying is that mystical experiences are not just neurological problems.

No one said they were problems. I said studies had been done regarding their neurology.

These experiences are deep and change people.

Preaching to the choir.

Science cannot prove that they are hallucinations.

Potentially, it could, but it actually does the opposite, proving they're not.

 

[Seven]

We seem to have allot in common!

These experiences are deep and change people. Even past life experiences change people. Science cannot prove that they are hallucinations.

I have had a couple of similar experiences through meditation. I don't think all atheists would put it down to hallucinations - I'm and atheist and I certainly don't. I think our scientific understanding of consciousness is very limited.
Unfortunately I don't have any deep insights to offer, I guess we will have to wait for science to extend our understanding in this matter. I agree that quantum physics may offer some answers eventually.

I thought quantum physics would have the answer for me, and it did in some ways, but then since I didn't understand most, what I read did not stick.

As physicist Richard Feynman said 'If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics'

I can empathize with your lack of peace at not knowing the answers. I guess that is the price of not taking the easy way out and hiding behind faith for peace of mind. Personally I try to view my search for truth as a journey. There just isn't enough time to find all the answers, so I try to enjoy the ride.

(Oh, I also used to be a JW by the way.)

 

[Seven]

Science has disproved it. Mystical experiences are neurologically distinct.y

.
Wasn't aware of that Storm. Would be very interested to find out more if you have any info.

 

[Storm]

I'm afraid I don't know of any sources conveniently online. I do highly recommend the book Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief.

 

[Seven]

I do highly recommend the book Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief.

Checked out the review, sounds really interesting - I'll definitely give it a read

Thanks

 

[grainne]

I was just going to ask about that book too, and I will check into it. thanks.

Seven, interesting, we do have a lot in common. A JW as well.

I can empathize with your lack of peace at not knowing the answers. I guess that is the price of not taking the easy way out and hiding behind faith for peace of mind. Personally I try to view my search for truth as a journey. There just isn't enough time to find all the answers, so I try to enjoy the ride.

Sometimes I can just say, It doesn't matter about God and truth, what matters is that you love others and that you try to help when you can. And then I wish I knew all these things, and so I read books, but no one has the answers. And I think how much easier it was when I was a JW who has all the answers and didn't question. I question myself out of every religion I have ever been in, and they didn't like my questioning, and my questioning always caused me to walk away. Just taking things on faith was so much easier. But my nature was to question. My dad called me Granny Mack because she always questioned everything. (She was my grandmother through my step dad's side of the family.)

This week I had been reading a good book titled "Rational Mysticism." A great book in that it is entertaining, but there were no conclusions, and when I wrote the author he wrote back saying that he just believes in loving others. The book was his way to find answers. He found none. And after reading so many of these books that I hope will have an answer I get brain fatigue, and so I read something like Nancy Drew. lol. But now that I am in a book club I am reading "Mean Spirit" about how in 1922 Oklahoma, the State in which I live now, the white people wanted the land back--oil. Grisly book. I am just about ready for Nancy Drew again.