Is there room for any religion that cannot be criticised?

[LumpHammer]

Ok. A newbie, and maybe it's been done to death etc. But as a strong advocate for freedom of expression, is there really any case for tolerance of a religion that cannot be criticised? I would fight for the right for anybody to practice their religion, whatever it may be, but when that very religion creates the level of fear it seems to be doing, isn't it time we said NO? I was brought up in a fairly agnostic household, although I was christened as CofE. I went through religious education and to be fair was given all the 'turn the other cheek' blah blah. However it seems when anyone dares criticise Allah or Muhammed in any way, then all hell breaks loose. They were even telling Sweden to prosecute that guy (forget his name), who drew a rather crappy bearded bloke on a dogs body... I mean what? We surely cannot pander to this nonsense? Oh and yes... my current avatar is from "Super Best Friends" - The Prophet himself, before all the sh1t hit the fan in Denmark.

 

[Booko]

Any religion can be critiqued and/or disagreed with here provided it's in accordance with rule 1 and isn't inflammatory, rude or insulting.

Seriously, the mod team doesn't ban people off the bat here -- we work with people who are obviously working on understanding the rules.

btw, using letter substitutions in place of vulgar terms is not ok. It's probably easier if you just type in the real thing and let the software replace it with all asterisks.

I suspect if you check out who's who on the mod staff you'll see we range across a lot of different beliefs, from atheism to...well, we haven't found a Zoroastrian yet, but we're working on that.

 

[LumpHammer]

Any religion can be critiqued and/or disagreed with here provided it's in accordance with rule 1 and isn't inflammatory, rude or insulting.

Seriously, the mod team doesn't ban people off the bat here -- we work with people who are obviously working on understanding the rules.

btw, using letter substitutions in place of vulgar terms is not ok. It's probably easier if you just type in the real thing and let the software replace it with all asterisks.

I suspect if you check out who's who on the mod staff you'll see we range across a lot of different beliefs, from atheism to...well, we haven't found a Zoroastrian yet, but we're working on that.

Ah. oops. Thats an automatic thing from another forum.. doh. As for the question... Ok let's start with one of my favourite films..."The Life of Brian" This is a little bit of a mockery of Christianity... Not OTT, but certainly a little blasphemous. People, or rather christians protested. The film went ahead, and made loads of money. However people now are scared to even criticise Islam, for genuine fear of their lives. And so called moderate muslims can't really distance themselves from it, like they did from 911, as they then decided to destroy property because of a cartoon. So now we have a europe which is becoming increasingly muslim, and I am actually worried about my future freedom of expression. And certainly for my children I am very worried what sort of a world they will inherit.

 

[Lecter]

However people now are scared to even criticise Islam,

In my opinion Muslims and their religion is constantly being criticized. Like when you look at the news, if a man does something that is bad, they say he did it because he's a bad man. However if someone who happens to be Muslim does the exact same act, they make sure to tell you about his religion, and then they talk about why it's his evil religion that made him become bad.

So now we have a europe which is becoming increasingly muslim

I agree with you, unlike you I think humans in general have a lot to learn from Islam. (Notice I said humans, I am including some so called Muslims in that statement)

As for your question, I think any religion can be criticized, I just think there's a manner and certain way to do it. As long as one is being respectful, I don't see a problem.

It's just when someone starts shouting "ATHEISTs ARE TEH DEVIL WORSHIPERZZZ!!!666!!" it's hard to take them seriously.

 

[Sunstone]

Glenn Greenwald wrote about this issue on the 13th. You can read his blog post here. Here's an excerpt:

The largest right-wing bloggers, such as Michelle Malkin and Charles Johnson, devote themselves on a virtually daily basis to condemning Muslims and mocking Islam. During the "Mohammed cartoon" controversy, they repeatedly published the blasphemous cartoons. Malkin has a blogger on her Hot Air blog who derisively blogs under the name "Allah". Were fatwas issued against them? Are they living in seclusion, under 24-hour guard from the Grave Islamic Menace that lives in Kirchick's head?


Both of Kirchick's bosses -- Marty Peretz and Norm Podhoretz -- have made advocacy of wars against Muslims the centerpiece of their identity. Peretz's TNR blog is a virtual museum exhibiting on a daily basis every form of known anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigotry. Podhoretz openly "prays" for bombing campaigns against still more Muslim countires as part of what he calls "World War IV." Are they in hiding? Are they attacked during their endless public appearances? Are there fatwas on their heads?

 

[YmirGF]

In my opinion Muslims and their religion is constantly being criticized. Like when you look at the news, if a man does something that is bad, they say he did it because he's a bad man. However if someone who happens to be Muslim does the exact same act, they make sure to tell you about his religion, and then they talk about why it's his evil religion that made him become bad.

I agree with all except the last part. Mind you, I am in Canada, so our media simply does not do that sort of thing. Heavens to Betsy, someone might think ill of us, lol.

I agree with you, unlike you I think humans in general have a lot to learn from Islam. (Notice I said humans, I am including some so called Muslims in that statement) Perhaps, but it seems that Muslims have a lot to learn from the rest of the world as well.

As for your question, I think any religion can be criticized, I just think there's a manner and certain way to do it. As long as one is being respectful, I don't see a problem.

I know what you mean, but most people get rather in a lather before they even start talking about it, so, on occaision, the fur tends to fly.

It's just when someone starts shouting "ATHEISTs ARE TEH DEVIL WORSHIPERZZZ!!!666!!" it's hard to take them seriously.

Yeah, that is always a show-stopper for me. It's like when Muslims cannot admit that their belief in the Noble Qur'an is merely that, a belief, but no, they have to insist that it is the literal Word of God and get all hissy when anyone says anything otherwise. It is difficult to respect such myopic thinking. For example, I respect the right of the individual to believe whatever they want to, but it is asking a bit much to ask me to be respectful of those beliefs. I'm sure you understand.

As to the OP, what can I say? Would you tell a raving drunk that you slept with their mother? Would you poke an angry Pit Bull with a sharp stick? Would you go up to a 3 year old and scream, "Santa is not real! Get over it!" Just sigh and apply the same logic functions to actions that make you want to pull your hair out.

 

[Smoke]

In my opinion Muslims and their religion is constantly being criticized. Like when you look at the news, if a man does something that is bad, they say he did it because he's a bad man. However if someone who happens to be Muslim does the exact same act, they make sure to tell you about his religion, and then they talk about why it's his evil religion that made him become bad.

I don't think that's true at all. Remember the riots in France in 2005? American news outlets were blathering about "youth unrest;" I didn't see any stories that intimated that they were Muslim youth who were rioting. Even when they reported that the rioters were broadcasting "prayers" on loudspeakers, they never said they were Muslim prayers. It was often mentioned that the rioters were immigrants, but no story I saw said Muslim immigrants. Every story I read that mentioned Muslims in connection with the riots mentioned them sympathetically, as being disturbed by the rioting. It was really striking the lengths reporters went to to dissociate Islam from the rioting.

Our politicians go on tv and tout Islam as a "religion of peace," and our news reporters try as hard as they can to avoid criticizing Islam. In one of the rare instances of direct criticism, Christine Amanpour was careful to make a three-part series, criticizing extremism among Christians and Jews as well as among Muslims. Most of the time, Islam gets a free pass in our press. Even nonsense terms like "Islamism" and "Islamofascism" are ways of distinguishing Islam from Islamic violence.

Conservatives don't want to offend the nice people we buy our oil from, and have to step carefully when criticizing religious extremists, since some of their strongest political support comes from Christian extremists. Liberals don't want to seem intolerant, and will trot out tired arguments about all the violence resulting from poverty, ignorance, and desperation, even though we daily see examples of Muslim terrorists who are neither poor nor uneducated nor desperate.

Far from stigmatizing Islam, the press have been so eager to avoid stigmatizing Islam that they have failed in their duty to report the news. They need to start asking the hard questions, and telling the hard truths -- about Islam, and about Christianity, too. But they won't, because news reporting is driven by commercial interests, and not by any devotion to the truth or to the people's right to know.

 

[Booko]

Ok let's start with one of my favourite films..."The Life of Brian" This is a little bit of a mockery of Christianity... Not OTT, but certainly a little blasphemous. People, or rather christians protested.

Ah, if you're a Python fan, you should definitely take a look at the Python thread.

I didn't think Life of Brian was blasphemous, though. How can it be blasphemous when Jesus isn't even really a character in the film? It lampoons some of the odder aspects of religion generally, and just happens to be vaguely connected to Christianity only because the setting is Rome around 30 C.E.

The film went ahead, and made loads of money. However people now are scared to even criticise Islam, for genuine fear of their lives.

Oh yeah, did you see the Mind of Mencia episode? No probably not -- it's a U.S. show. It might be on Comedy Channel's site, though.

Muhammad was invisible. I guess Carlos didn't want to take any chances either, but he still managed to make his sketch. It was quite funny.

And so called moderate muslims can't really distance themselves from it, like they did from 911, as they then decided to destroy property because of a cartoon. So now we have a europe which is becoming increasingly muslim, and I am actually worried about my future freedom of expression. And certainly for my children I am very worried what sort of a world they will inherit.

Things are a bit different in the U.S. We have far more than so-called moderate Muslims. We have just plain moderate Muslims. You can meet several of them here on RF for a chat.

I know that the growth of the Muslim population has been faster, which causes some difficulties as people get used to it. And in the U.S., well our country was built on immigrants, so we're a little more used to the idea of assimilating people (even though we've had our difficulties over the years), so that works to our advantage.

I'm more worried about what sort of world my children will inherit for different reasons. Religion doesn't really enter into it so much, but economics and politics certainly do.

 

[Lecter]

I agree with all except the last part. Mind you, I am in Canada, so our media simply does not do that sort of thing. Heavens to Betsy, someone might think ill of us, lol.

I don't watch Canadian news, so I'll have to take your word for it.
With that said my above comment is only my opinion. It's how lots of us feel sometimes. Whether it's true or not that's another debate.

Perhaps, but it seems that Muslims have a lot to learn from the rest of the world as well.

We all can learn from each other, I agree. It's just that it seemed as if Europeans becoming Muslim means the end of the world as we know it. Or that we'll have another Taliban, because we know how all Muslims are evil terrorists

Who knows, maybe with the combination of Europe and Islam we'll have a new golden age of Islam.

It's like when Muslims cannot admit that their belief in the Noble Qur'an is merely that, a belief, but no, they have to insist that it is the literal Word of God

hehe, I do believe that!

My point isn't about respecting per se, you have every right NOT to respect whatever you want. I was talking about the way you show someone why you think they are wrong.

 

[Booko]

I don't think that's true at all. Remember the riots in France in 2005? American news outlets were blathering about "youth unrest;" I didn't see any stories that intimated that they were Muslim youth who were rioting.

I certainly did, and no, it wasn't on Fox Noise either. But it wasn't overdone, and often it was in the context of journalists explaining the situation of immigrants of any sort in France.

Even when they reported that the rioters were broadcasting "prayers" on loudspeakers, they never said they were Muslim prayers. It was often mentioned that the rioters were immigrants, but no story I saw said Muslim immigrants.

They mentioned the cultural/religious background enough when I was watching coverage.

Our politicians go on tv and tout Islam as a "religion of peace," and our news reporters try as hard as they can to avoid criticizing Islam.

I don't get they do that out of fear, though. Well, if so, they do it because they don't want to annoy the many voters here in the African-American community who are Muslims and whose people have been here for a very long time.

But that aside, I think there's enough anti-Muslim prejudice that occurs naturally after 9/11. Were I a reporter, I don't think I'd feel much need to emphasize religion, as it would only add fuel to that fire. It would be like constantly harping on someone's race during the riots of the 60s.

In one of the rare instances of direct criticism, Christine Amanpour was careful to make a three-part series, criticizing extremism among Christians and Jews as well as among Muslims. Most of the time, Islam gets a free pass in our press. Even nonsense terms like "Islamism" and "Islamofascism" are ways of distinguishing Islam from Islamic violence.

I don't see it that way, MB. As long as "Islam" is part of the term, it won't be distinguishing anything. Terms like that just muddy the waters. ymmv

Far from stigmatizing Islam, the press have been so eager to avoid stigmatizing Islam that they have failed in their duty to report the news. They need to start asking the hard questions, and telling the hard truths -- about Islam, and about Christianity, too. But they won't, because news reporting is driven by commercial interests, and not by any devotion to the truth or to the people's right to know.

They don't generally ask hard questions on any subject, for one reason you mention above -- they're driven by commercial interests. It's much easier, cheaper and profitable to report incessantly on the poor behaviour of a few dumb faux blond starlets in Hollywood. Who needs news when you got Brittany Spears? And now OJ is accused of burglary in Vega$! Woot!

*looks at most recent Netlix arrivals*

 

[Booko]

I don't watch Canadian news, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Ymir is right about Canadian news.

I used to live in Michigan, in the northern U.S. and got Canadian news all the time. They really are much much better than our domestic news here. I used to tune in the CBC just to find out what was really going on in my own country, and that was back in the 70s and 80s. Our news here has only gotten worse over time. Now I watch the BBC when I can, but mostly go online to read the news.

 

[Smoke]

My point isn't about respecting per se, you have every right NOT to respect whatever you want. I was talking about the way you show someone why you think they are wrong.

In the U.S., we not only have a right to our opinion, but the right to express our opinion in ways that might displease other people. We don't have to respect the unfounded opinions of others or pretend that we do. And frankly, I think it would be tragic to pretend to respect the opinions of people who riot over cartoons.

 

[Ðanisty]

I don't see it that way, MB. As long as "Islam" is part of the term, it won't be distinguishing anything. Terms like that just muddy the waters. ymmv

How then are we supposed to talk about Muslim extremists?

 

[Booko]

How then are we supposed to talk about Muslim extremists?

"Muslim extremists" will do nicely. It's not like it's inextricably intertwined into one word or anything.

Funny, but I haven't heard the term Christianfacists before, even though there are some who would like to be running our gov't and who, if they pulled that off, would endanger our ability to practice our religions. We reserve certain "special" terms for the extremists who cast their actions in terms of Islam.

I'd suggest a more even-handed approach.

 

[Sunstone]

I've heard the term "Christian fascists" before to describe Christian extremists.

 

[gnostic]

However if someone who happens to be Muslim does the exact same act, they make sure to tell you about his religion, and then they talk about why it's his evil religion that made him become bad.

I understand what you are saying. If the Muslim didn't bring religion of what awful act he performed, then sometimes not is said.

However, some bad Muslims always bring religion into the matter, so non-Muslim people would associate their acts to their religion. Some Muslims like to put religion in people's face when the commit their violence. Then the faults lay with the bragging Muslims for putting their religion in disrepute.

Some Muslims used jihad to justified their actions. Is any non-Muslim's fault that they see your religion as being involved with Muslims' actions, when these Muslims make these claims?

If Muslims keep putting Jihad, prophet and Islam into their worldly view, then you will have to accept every criticism that come your way, just as other religions must accept criticism for the actions of their followers.

 

[gnostic]

Cartoons were meant to provoke people. It was meant to satirize and exaggerate about people, particularly leaders in politics or from high social circles. Politicians are favourite targets of cartoonists. It is meant to be rude and make fun of everyday life. It is nature of cartoons.

If the cartoonists are not making someone laugh, offended or become the focus of the talks at the water-coolers, then the cartoonists are not doing their jobs.

I seriously think that Muslims took it too seriously and the violent reactions were unwarranted.

Someone or group of people brutally murdered a nun from another country, who had absolutely nothing to do with the Danish cartoons; that's taking too far, don't you think? How do you or anyone can justify murder?

 

[Booko]

I've heard the term "Christian fascists" before to describe Christian extremists.

It seems a poor use of the term "facist" though.

Well, it being English, meanings have a way of morphing over time.

 

[Sunstone]

It seems a poor use of the term "facist" though.

Well, it being English, meanings have a way of morphing over time.

It's not such a poor use of the term when referring to Dominionists. Then again, why not just call them Dominionists?

 

[Booko]

Cartoons were meant to provoke people. It was meant to satirize and exaggerate about people, particularly leaders in politics or from high social circles. It is meant to be rude. It is nature of cartoons.

I seriously think that Muslims took it too seriously and the violent reactions were unwarranted.

Someone or group of people brutally murdered a nun from another country, who had absolutely nothing to do with the Danish cartoons; that's taking too far, don't you think? How do you or anyone can justify murder?

Well yes, and set fire to the Danish embassy in Damascus.

That seems very out of proportion -- all about a cartoon.