Is there room for any religion that cannot be criticised?

[Smoke]

(we have other reasons to speak bad about America though )

And you do. What's the difference?

 

[jonny]

That is exactly my point. You want to judge over one billion people because of the actions of a few?

The problem is that it isn't "a few." Sure, compared with a billion people, it isn't a lot, but the actions are coming from a good sized group of people and they don't show any sign of stopping.

 

[mcteethinator]

The problem is that it isn't "a few." Sure, compared with a billion people, it isn't a lot, but the actions are coming from a good sized group of people and they don't show any sign of stopping.

Mhm, but that isn't the point. By a few he meant in comparison to the overall Muslim population so you can't judge a billion people because of the actions of a few thousand.

 

[LumpHammer]

Well. Threats have recently been made to disrupt Swedish businesses. Only time will tell if these threats are realized, but it certainly isn't the same as the KKK morons. Studies also show the muslim youth are getting more radical, not less. Only recently in Britain, they were making demands that they be able to establish that foulest of evil, 'Sharia law'. This is in Britain. Now at the moment obviously government is not going to allow this to happen. But what about when muslim population gets to 10,20,30 or more percent?

I think there there should be a happy medium between someone being able to criticize a religion, and also having some respect for it, or at least for its followers.

How? Is a cartoon of Muhammed with a dogs body too far? What if I start a religion and claim that all images of JESUS are blasphemous? And I gain a large enough following that people destroy buildings of people who disobey? However upsetting and critical, I should be able to draw what I like, and say what I like about anything (So long as I'm not libeling someone(real) in the process of course)

There really isn't such a thing as ANYTHING that cannot be criticized. Criticism part of living, and not being able to respond constructively to criticism is not a sign of maturity.

I agree

If religious zealots react violently to criticism it reflect on those people not the religion.

Until I see masses of muslims protesting against the actions of the zealots then I'm afraid it does. I asked a muslim colleague what he thought of the rioters, destroying Danish buildings etc, and he simply said "The cartoonist was wrong" - Now he is as moderate as it gets. He wouldn't riot himself, but I think secretly admires them (now that is just my judgement, and may be wrong)

 

[Smoke]

Mhm, but that isn't the point. By a few he meant in comparison to the overall Muslim population so you can't judge a billion people because of the actions of a few thousand.

I agree, but I also think that remark would be better directed at your co-religionists who judge the entire nation of Denmark, or Europe, or the West, over the actions of a handful, and who react with violence instead of just criticism.

I mean, what other religion has this problem -- now, in the 21st century -- that many of its members -- however unrepresentative they may be -- believe it's appropriate to murder a cartoonist who insults them? Wouldn't your time and effort be better spent in civilizing your co-religionists than in trying to convince non-Muslims to pretend they don't notice these things?

 

[mcteethinator]

I agree, but I also think that remark would be better directed at your co-religionists who judge the entire nation of Denmark, or Europe, or the West, over the actions of a handful, and who react with violence instead of just criticism.

I mean, what other religion has this problem -- now, in the 21st century -- that many of its members -- however unrepresentative they may be -- believe it's appropriate to murder a cartoonist who insults them? Wouldn't your time and effort be better spent in civilizing your co-religionists than in trying to convince non-Muslims to pretend they don't notice these things?

I can't do anything to stop these people. I don't even know anyone that would in fact do that so I can't tell them not to. I'm not trying to make people not notice these things. I'm trying to stop it from going down the slipery slope of a second Holocaust happening.

The problem is people think it's easy to shut up these nuts. It isn't. Peaceful, moderate Muslims have spoken out against these wackos at practically every oppurtunity, The local Islamic organization for New Zealand has spread numerous mini-manifestos against terrorism, the Muhammad cartoons and responding to the Muhammad cartoons violently. Plus the anti-terrorism fatwas, anti-terrorism conferences and organizations I see churned out all the time from numerous Islamic scholars in the vain hope someone will actually pay attention to the fact they're trying their best.

It's like telling the average Christian to stop people from blowing up abortion clinics. I'm sure a few Christians have tried. And the clinic bombers are miniscule in comparison to how many extremist Muslim zealots there are.

But my point isn't that, my point is when the media goes out of it's way to say that not all Muslims are bad, they're trying unsuccessfully to calm the flames. They need to remind the easily manipulated public that the enemy are the terrorists, not every single Muslim. When that happens it causes all sorts of suffering for completely innocent bystanders like Muslim kids teased in school, Sikhs murdered for looking like Muslims, etc. I do know people that have reacted violently to innocent Muslims and Middle Easterns because of "the actions of a handful" as you put it and I don't see the average Islamic critic going out of his way to condemn that either. Because groups are not a hive mind, as much as some people seem to think. You cannot simply will the people that take things too far to stop.

Plus I'm a quarter Danish myself.

 

[LumpHammer]

mkay... avatar changed

 

[Booko]

Is a cartoon of Muhammed with a dogs body too far? What if I start a religion and claim that all images of JESUS are blasphemous?

Try publishing a cartoon of Jesus with a dog's head in my part of the world and see if you don't have difficulties over it.

 

[LumpHammer]

Try publishing a cartoon of Jesus with a dog's head in my part of the world and see if you don't have difficulties over it.

Where are you? And difficulties yes. Maybe nobody would publish it, and then fair enough. But IF THEY DID. Would their life become at serious risk? I doubt it.

 

[Sunstone]

Where are you? And difficulties yes. Maybe nobody would publish it, and then fair enough. But IF THEY DID. Would their life become at serious risk? I doubt it.

You might doubt it, but Sam Harris travels with bodyguards these days.

 

[Booko]

Where are you? And difficulties yes. Maybe nobody would publish it, and then fair enough. But IF THEY DID. Would their life become at serious risk? I doubt it.

The state of Georgia.

And yes, I personally know of people who have been in physical danger because they dared to have a different religion.

 

[Sunstone]

The problem is that it isn't "a few." Sure, compared with a billion people, it isn't a lot, but the actions are coming from a good sized group of people and they don't show any sign of stopping.

Fred Phelps doesn't show any signs of stopping either. Neither does Pat Robertson.

 

[MaddLlama]

The state of Georgia.

And yes, I personally know of people who have been in physical danger because they dared to have a different religion.

It's not limited to the south, either.

 

[LumpHammer]

It's not limited to the south,br either.

The obvious difference that this is localised. It is unfortunate, and it's worth fighting against. The issue I am worrying about is a worldwide phenomonem.

 

[jamaesi]

Try publishing a cartoon of Jesus with a dog's head in my part of the world and see if you don't have difficulties over it.

Alternatively, you could always just paint your car with slogans like "Hillary for President," "NASCAR sucks," or "I support man love" and drive through Alabama. Bonus points come from being beat up or shot.

Or you can run a commercial once that features two men in a relationship buying furniture and get bomb threats leveled towards your store as Ikea did a while back.

Or hell, just open a women's clinic.

 

[LumpHammer]

Alternatively, you could always just paint your car with slogans like "Hillary for President," "NASCAR sucks," or "I support man love" and drive through Alabama. Bonus points come from being beat up or shot.

Or you can run a commercial once that features two men in a relationship buying furniture and get bomb threats leveled towards your store as Ikea did a while back.

Or hell, just open a women's clinic.

That was a very funny episode.
Be interesting if they tried 'Gay is ok', 'Down with the king', 'Free Pork chops here' ... in Saudi.
One wonders how much more scary THAT would have been

 

[jamaesi]

Ah yes, but the USA brags about freedom while Saudi most certainly does not.

There's a reason I've told my SO there's no way in hell we're living in Saudi. I'd much prefer Oregon.

 

[Booko]

The obvious difference that this is localised. It is unfortunate, and it's worth fighting against. The issue I am worrying about is a worldwide phenomonem.

No, it isn't. You just think it is because it's in your locality.

Visit Detroit, Michigan and tell me again about the problem -- it doesn't exist there.

Pew Research has some very interesting information on attitudes of Muslims around the world. You'll find in the U.S. no one is doing crazy stuff like demanding implementation of sharia law.

The Muslim immigrant population here is just doing what every immigrant population has done before them.

 

[Booko]

Alternatively, you could always just paint your car with slogans like "Hillary for President," "NASCAR sucks," or "I support man love" and drive through Alabama. Bonus points come from being beat up or shot.

Heck, my husband was getting a new license plate for the car one year and the number part of it was 666. The two people before him declined the plate. By the time he got to the front of the line, the clerk didn't even bother asking.

Didn't Danisty mention a friend's car being vandalized for having a Darwin fish on it? I vaguely recall that.

Or you can run a commercial once that features two men in a relationship buying furniture and get bomb threats leveled towards your store as Ikea did a while back.

Or hell, just open a women's clinic.

Or a gay bar.

Then you get REAL bombs.

We've had *domestic* terrorists here in Atlanta do just that...along with the Olympic bomb of course.

No Muslims bombing anything, though, and there are plenty of Muslims around town.

Wow...even in my neighborhood...

Should I be...scared?

 

[jamaesi]

Heck, my husband was getting a new license plate for the car one year and the number part of it was 666. The two people before him declined the plate. By the time he got to the front of the line, the clerk didn't even bother asking.

Didn't Danisty mention a friend's car being vandalized for having a Darwin fish on it? I vaguely recall that.

My "God Bless the Whole World" sticker got scratched off. You don't get much less offensive and more fluffy than that one... and it apparently threatened someone so much they had to defend themselves against it with their keys.

Or a gay bar.

Then you get REAL bombs.

We've had *domestic* terrorists here in Atlanta do just that...along with the Olympic bomb of course.

No Muslims bombing anything, though, and there are plenty of Muslims around town.

Wow...even in my neighborhood...

Should I be...scared?

The only car bombs in my town were set by a group of white boys who tried to plant one in our high school vice-principal's car.

They were the ones who also delighted in calling me "sand n*****" and "terrorist" and "camel jockey."

I delighted in seeing their write-up in the paper for being arrested for terroristic acts.