Is This Fair Criticism Of Libertarianism?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Right, some regulation is useful. Its amazing how some non libertarians think the regulations are not being overdone.

Alot of laws look good on paper, so why not make more they think. But, yhey dont think of the ramifications (a.k.a suffications) that they will entail in society. That ripple effect once the rock of laws hit the water of society.

Tell that to the people of Bhopal.

Bhopal disaster - Wikipedia

 

[Jollybear]

Right. And you didn't give a real response that time, either.

I sure did.

So you don't consider it evil to take advantage of vulnerable people as long as they can technically walk away, even if on very unfavourable terms?

Is taking advantage of people harm them?

If you were in a crappy job, but knew that your family would be evicted if you found a better one, would you feel particularly free?

Thats where

1: you save to go to another place to live or

2: your other job pays to get you astablished.

Planned economies are okay, as long as it's a company that's doing the planning (for its own benefit)?

No one is free to be evil.

 

[SalixIncendium]

**MOVED TO POLITICAL DEBATES**​

 

[Jollybear]

Tell that to the people of Bhopal.

Bhopal disaster - Wikipedia

Again, no one is free to be neglegent (e.g. evil, harm others).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I sure did.



Is taking advantage of people harm them?

It can be.. though the bar we were considering was "evil," remember?

Thats where

1: you save to go to another place to live or

2: your other job pays to get you astablished.

But since your employer also owns your home and all the stores in town, they can raise your expenses as much as they like so you can't ever save money... or even end up in debt to the company.

Something else that they'd do: instead of paying employees cash, they'd pay them scrip that's only good at the company store.

No one is free to be evil.

In the libertarian system, they generally are.

Go have a look at companies where libertarian principles are put into action: Somalia, for instance. Is that somewhere you'd like to live? Would you feel more "free" than in the heavily-regulated western countries you're complaining about?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, no one is free to be neglegent (e.g. evil, harm others).

The regulations you say you're opposed to is what prevents these sorts of incidents. When we get rid of that regulation - as you propose - people die.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right, some regulation is useful. Its amazing how some non libertarians think the regulations are not being overdone.

Amazing to us.
But others have different values & agendas regarding liberty vs control & security.

Alot of laws look good on paper, so why not make more they think. But, yhey dont think of the ramifications (a.k.a suffications) that they will entail in society. That ripple effect once the rock of laws hit the water of society.

Different levels of trust in government, eh.

 

[Jollybear]

.

Revolt, we gotta get the penguin. Lets intellectually gang up on em

 

[Revoltingest]

Revolt, we gotta get the penguin. Lets intellectually gang up on em

That wouldn't be kosher.
No one likes to be under a dogpile.

Some disputes aren't worth having.
I'm reminded of a great literary quote....
"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." - Dr McCoy, Friday's Child, STTOS.

 

[Jollybear]

It can be.. though the bar we were considering was "evil," remember?

Well, taking advantage of people by inslaving them IS evil.

But since your employer also owns your home and all the stores in town, they can raise your expenses as much as they like so you can't ever save money... or even end up in debt to the company.

Something else that they'd do: instead of paying employees cash, they'd pay them scrip that's only good at the company store.

Remember, no ones will is allowed to be violated. If the people are indirectly forced to stay in this company town, thats no different then kidnapping. Thats not allowed in a libertarian kingdom.

In the libertarian system, they generally are.

Generally? Well i dont believe in that "generally" kind of libertarianism your talking about. I believe in a libertarianism that does not allow evil.

Go have a look at companies where libertarian principles are put into action: Somalia, for instance. Is that somewhere you'd like to live? Would you feel more "free" than in the heavily-regulated western countries you're complaining about?

What goes on in somolia? I havent researched there ways and laws in order to decide. Im trying to paint a picture of MY KINGDOM for you.

The regulations you say you're opposed to is what prevents these sorts of incidents. When we get rid of that regulation - as you propose - people die.

Im not proposing we get rid of GOOD, intelligent regulations, im just proposing we get rid of bad, oppressive and stupid regulations. Regulations that are all about money.

 

[Jollybear]

That wouldn't be kosher.
No one likes to be under a dogpile.

Some disputes aren't worth having.
I'm reminded of a great literary quote....
"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." - Dr McCoy, Friday's Child, STTOS.

So what penguin says is unimportant and we do not hear his words?

But, what if others hear it and then vote non libertarian. Then the country goes to hell in a hand basket.

 

[Revoltingest]

So what penguin says is unimportant and we do not hear his words?

But, what if others hear it and then vote non libertarian. Then the country goes to hell in a hand basket.

I spoke more generally.
There are times when productive discussion looks unlikely
And then we needn't respond to what we've read.

I'm reminded of an apocryphal quote from some Eastern European
who was asked about what it's like to now be exploited by capitalism.....
"It beats being exploited by socialism."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Revolt, we gotta get the penguin. Lets intellectually gang up on em

It would be bad for you to be wrong and lonely.

 

[Jollybear]

I spoke more generally.
There are times when productive discussion looks unlikely
And then we needn't respond to what we've read.

I'm reminded of an apocryphal quote from some Eastern European
who was asked about what it's like to now be exploited by capitalism.....
"It beats being exploited by socialism."

Thats a good one, it beats being exploited by socialism. Im gonna remember that quote.

 

[Jollybear]

It would be bad for you to be wrong and lonely.

Im right and not alone because revolt and i agree on libertarianism.

We gonna getcha.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, taking advantage of people by inslaving them IS evil.

Are you calling company towns slavery? I've never heard a libertalibe describe them that way.

Remember, no ones will is allowed to be violated. If the people are indirectly forced to stay in this company town, thats no different then kidnapping. Thats not allowed in a libertarian kingdom.

Heh... a libertarian monarchy. That's funny.

So what laws would this "libertarian monarchy" of yours have to prevent the practice?

Generally? Well i dont believe in that "generally" kind of libertarianism your talking about. I believe in a libertarianism that does not allow evil.

So a non-libertarian libertarianism, then?

What goes on in somolia? I havent researched there ways and laws in order to decide. Im trying to paint a picture of MY KINGDOM for you.

Somalia is an example of what happens when we get rid of regulation as you've been suggesting.

Im not proposing we get rid of GOOD, intelligent regulations, im just proposing we get rid of bad, oppressive and stupid regulations. Regulations that are all about money.

And who's the judge of what's a "good, intelligent" regulation and what's a "bad, oppressive and stupid" regulation? You?

BTW: which ones are the "bad, oppressive and stupid" regulations? Give some examples.

Would, say, zoning by-laws fit the bill? How about OSHA? Employment standards? Campaign finance limits?

 

[Jollybear]

Are you calling company towns slavery? I've never heard a libertalibe describe them that way.

No, im saying a company town will not be allowed to directly or indirectly make slaves of there towns people. They are allowed to have a company town though.

Heh... a libertarian monarchy. That's funny.

Misunderstanding. I was using the word kingdom in a loose way. I did not mean it in a literal way. I would still do the checks and balence system so that power would not centralize, grow too big and turn tyranical.

Now, if i was a king and i could live forever, THEN id mean it in a literal sense because in my case there would not need to be checks on my power since im smart snd im not oppressive.

What else can i say?

But yea, since i dont live forever, id keep the checks and balance system in place.

So what laws would this "libertarian monarchy" of yours have to prevent the practice?

The laws for company towns would be simple.

Thou shalt not directly hold ye peoples to your towns against there will. Thou shalt also not indirectly hold ye peoples to your towns against there will. Thats done by not paying them cash or enough money or selling ye food too high.

So a non-libertarian libertarianism, then?

Thats right, non liberty to do evil, but liberty to do anything else.

Somalia is an example of what happens when we get rid of regulation as you've been suggesting.

Again, bad regulation goes, good stays.

And who's the judge of what's a "good, intelligent" regulation and what's a "bad, oppressive and stupid" regulation? You?

Yes, i am the judge of the good and bad regulations. Thats right. And other libertarians as well. Revolt is another judge.

BTW: which ones are the "bad, oppressive and stupid" regulations? Give some examples.

Would, say, zoning by-laws fit the bill? How about OSHA? Employment standards? Campaign finance limits?

Many examples. Lets zoom into one for now to keep posts relatively short.

Trucking industry, since thats what i do for a living.

I say get rid of some of the elog regulations.

Just to state first what the e log is. Currently a trucker is permitted to have a 14 hour work day. They are allowed within that 14 hours to drive no more then 11 hours. But, that 11 hours MUST be driven BEFORE the 14 hour clock is done, otherwise you must stop and shut down the truck for 10 hours. Your 14 hour clock starts when YOU decide to press that button. Once it starts, it dont stop. However, once your drive time starts, it CAN stop when you stop the truck and press "on duty fueling" or "off duty meal break", or whatever. And it can stop and revert to just "on duty" by itself and thus safe your drive time.

There's also a thing called the 8 hour split. It can be confusing. But how it works is if you stop the truck WAY before 14 hours is up, say, 8 hours. Then if you press "sleeper birth" and have it remain that for 8 hours, then your hours reset and you dont have to wait the additional 2 hours, thus making you not needing to shut down for 10 hours.

However, if you use your whole 14 hour clock, pressing sleeper birth and waiting 8 hours wont reset your hours, youl need to still wait the extra 2 hours.

Ok, theres more regulations, but i dont wanba dive into them just yet. Lets deal with this one in the elog first.

Its my opinion that this elog regulation SHOULD CHANGE.

Why might you ask?

Because, lets say your run is 9 hours drive time away. Ok, mid way into your trip you stop to pee and eat or fuel or whatever. So, you drive 5 hours, stop for a half hour. Which also by law you cant drive more then 8 hours without stopping a half hour too. Then your additional 3 hours resets and is given to you to drive them.

Now, after your half hour is up or longer if you want, then you drive the rest of the way to your delivery.

Ok, by now your 14 hour clock is 9 and a half hours, or 10 hours IF you took an hour break. Or it could be 10 and a half hours if you got stuck in a standstill of traffic backup.

Ok, wer still fine, because now we still got 3 and a half hours left on our 14 hour clock. That gives us 2 hours drive time to leave the delivery and go find a truck stop or rest area to shut down for the night.

BUT something goes wrong. The delivery site takes 4 hours to unload your trailer. Ah oh, you just ran out of your 14 hour clock for your work day. This means IF yuou drive off there yard, you will be breaking federal law because your 14 hour is DONE.

But, you have no choice, that wearhouse wants you OFF there lot. They dont alow you to shut down there. Now sime places do allow trucks to shut down on there yard. But not all do.

So, this is a situation where your damed if ya do and damned if ya dont do.

Government does not have wiggle room here. If perse they inspected your logs and found this violation they could legally give you a ticket.

This is insane to me.

I propose that they ABBOLISH the 14 hour clock completely and just have the 11 hour drive time law be sufficient, along with a 8 hour sleep period. And call it a day.

Thats a libertarian principle at its FINIST!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, im saying a company town will not be allowed to directly or indirectly make slaves of there towns people. They are allowed to have a company town though.



Misunderstanding. I was using the word kingdom in a loose way. I did not mean it in a literal way. I would still do the checks and balence system so that power would not centralize, grow too big and turn tyranical.

Now, if i was a king and i could live forever, THEN id mean it in a literal sense because in my case there would not need to be checks on my power since im smart snd im not oppressive.

What else can i say?

But yea, since i dont live forever, id keep the checks and balance system in place.



The laws for company towns would be simple.

Thou shalt not directly hold ye peoples to your towns against there will. Thou shalt also not indirectly hold ye peoples to your towns against there will. Thats done by not paying them cash or enough money or selling ye food too high.



Thats right, non liberty to do evil, but liberty to do anything else.



Again, bad regulation goes, good stays.



Yes, i am the judge of the good and bad regulations. Thats right. And other libertarians as well. Revolt is another judge.



Many examples. Lets zoom into one for now to keep posts relatively short.

Trucking industry, since thats what i do for a living.

I say get rid of some of the elog regulations.

Just to state first what the e log is. Currently a trucker is permitted to have a 14 hour work day. They are allowed within that 14 hours to drive no more then 11 hours. But, that 11 hours MUST be driven BEFORE the 14 hour clock is done, otherwise you must stop and shut down the truck for 10 hours. Your 14 hour clock starts when YOU decide to press that button. Once it starts, it dont stop. However, once your drive time starts, it CAN stop when you stop the truck and press "on duty fueling" or "off duty meal break", or whatever. And it can stop and revert to just "on duty" by itself and thus safe your drive time.

There's also a thing called the 8 hour split. It can be confusing. But how it works is if you stop the truck WAY before 14 hours is up, say, 8 hours. Then if you press "sleeper birth" and have it remain that for 8 hours, then your hours reset and you dont have to wait the additional 2 hours, thus making you not needing to shut down for 10 hours.

However, if you use your whole 14 hour clock, pressing sleeper birth and waiting 8 hours wont reset your hours, youl need to still wait the extra 2 hours.

Ok, theres more regulations, but i dont wanba dive into them just yet. Lets deal with this one in the elog first.

Its my opinion that this elog regulation SHOULD CHANGE.

Why might you ask?

Because, lets say your run is 9 hours drive time away. Ok, mid way into your trip you stop to pee and eat or fuel or whatever. So, you drive 5 hours, stop for a half hour. Which also by law you cant drive more then 8 hours without stopping a half hour too. Then your additional 3 hours resets and is given to you to drive them.

Now, after your half hour is up or longer if you want, then you drive the rest of the way to your delivery.

Ok, by now your 14 hour clock is 9 and a half hours, or 10 hours IF you took an hour break. Or it could be 10 and a half hours if you got stuck in a standstill of traffic backup.

Ok, wer still fine, because now we still got 3 and a half hours left on our 14 hour clock. That gives us 2 hours drive time to leave the delivery and go find a truck stop or rest area to shut down for the night.

BUT something goes wrong. The delivery site takes 4 hours to unload your trailer. Ah oh, you just ran out of your 14 hour clock for your work day. This means IF yuou drive off there yard, you will be breaking federal law because your 14 hour is DONE.

But, you have no choice, that wearhouse wants you OFF there lot. They dont alow you to shut down there. Now sime places do allow trucks to shut down on there yard. But not all do.

So, this is a situation where your damed if ya do and damned if ya dont do.

Government does not have wiggle room here. If perse they inspected your logs and found this violation they could legally give you a ticket.

This is insane to me.

I propose that they ABBOLISH the 14 hour clock completely and just have the 11 hour drive time law be sufficient, along with a 8 hour sleep period. And call it a day.

Thats a libertarian principle at its FINIST!

Wait - is your issue with e-logs or hours of service rules (or the fact that e-logs make it harder to fudge your hours of service)?

Driver fatigue kills. I get that hours of service rules can be a pain, but this mainly comes from two factors:

- different companies and lobbying organizations making sure that their particular case gets covered, and

- knowing that flexibility in the system will tend to get abused.

So this seems like a pretty clear-cut case of good, useful regulation. A pain for you, but necessarily so.

 

[Jollybear]

Wait - is your issue with e-logs or hours of service rules (or the fact that e-logs make it harder to fudge your hours of service)?

My issue is with hours of service. The 14 hour clock i believe should be abolished. Tell me why it should stay? Unless you agree with me.

Driver fatigue kills.

Driver fatigue happens STILL! Despite the 14 hour clock in place. Doing away with it would not increase fatigue because while your waiting 4 hours for the wearhouse to unload the trailer, you can take a 1, 2, 3 or hell, 4 hour nap if you want too. Then after its done, DRIVE off there yard and go to a rest area to take your full break.

I get that hours of service rules can be a pain, but this mainly comes from two factors:

- different companies and lobbying organizations making sure that their particular case gets covered, and

And why should lobbyists get there way?

- knowing that flexibility in the system will tend to get abused.

No, it wont because the driver is still only allowed 11 hours to drive and must have 8 hours to sleep. It wont hurt anything to abbolish the 14 hour clock. If anything it protects the driver and the companies from unesesary tickets when inspected or audited.

So this seems like a pretty clear-cut case of good, useful regulation. A pain for you, but necessarily so.

No, its bad regulation. Its not just a pain, its clearly oppressive and i told you why. The driver has no choice but to drive off the wearhouse lot despite the 14 hour clock being DONE. The wearhouse dont want you on there yard, atleast some of them dont.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My issue is with hours of service. The 14 hour clock i believe should be abolished. Tell me why it should stay? Unless you agree with me.



Driver fatigue happens STILL! Despite the 14 hour clock in place. Doing away with it would not increase fatigue because while your waiting 4 hours for the wearhouse to unload the trailer, you can take a 1, 2, 3 or hell, 4 hour nap if you want too. Then after its done, DRIVE off there yard and go to a rest area to take your full break.



And why should lobbyists get there way?



No, it wont because the driver is still only allowed 11 hours to drive and must have 8 hours to sleep. It wont hurt anything to abbolish the 14 hour clock. If anything it protects the driver and the companies from unesesary tickets when inspected or audited.



No, its bad regulation. Its not just a pain, its clearly oppressive and i told you why. The driver has no choice but to drive off the wearhouse lot despite the 14 hour clock being DONE. The wearhouse dont want you on there yard, atleast some of them dont.

If you want hours of service rules tweaked, that's fine, but I don't really see this issue as making the difference between an authoritarian nightmare and a libertarian utopia.