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Is this prophecy about Jesus?

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
2Sa 7:11-17 (ESVST) . Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. "When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men," 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. '" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. (emphasis mine)

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. I believe it's referring to Jesus.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
2Sa 7:11-17 (ESVST) . Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. "When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men," 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. '" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. (emphasis mine)

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. I believe it's referring to Jesus.

That this prophesy partly pointed forward to Jesus is evidenced by Hebrews 1:5.

"For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: 'You are my son; today I have become your father'? (Ps 2:7) And again: 'I will become his father, and he will become my son'? (2 Sa 7:14)" - Hebrews 1:5 with cross references.

However this prophesy includes the whole Davidic dynasty of kings, and not just the the one that inherits the throne forever. Instead of the kingdom being stripped from David's progeny as was done with King Saul, those kings were disciplined, reproved even, by being defeated in battle by surrounding nations. Eventually they were even temporally removed from ruling when the Babylonians removed Zedekiah from the throne in Jerusalem. (Jer 52:1-11)

So when the prophesy says "when he does wrong, I will reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of men. (or possibly, "Adam.")", it was a general statement about any of those kings, and not to imply that Jesus himself would "do wrong."
 
prophecy about prophet Isa (Jesus) in Islam

The Bible describes in a vivid language the corruption, destruction, and death typifying the End of Times. We see the godly forces confronting the evil forces of Satan, the Anti-Christ, and Gog and Magog. We learn that the cataclysmic events will take place in the Middle East. But still the picture needs to be completed.

Among these, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم have foretold the return of Jesus عليه السلام . Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has prophesied about several events that will occur just before the advent of the day of judgment. The return of Jesus will occur AFTER the Anti-Christ (known in Islam as the Dajjal, meaning the Deceiver who claims to be God) appears and attempts to deceive people into worshipping him. Then, Jesus (the Messiah) عليه السلام will descend from Heaven, pursue and kill the Anti-Christ, and destroy the savage and unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the World.

Christians will recognize the truth and accept Jesus عليه السلام as a Muslim Prophet and Messenger of God. The religion of God (Islam) will justly rule the World. There will be no more oppression or wars, and peace will prevail. Furthermore, there will be no need to collect Jizyah (tax levied on Christians & Jews in Islamic states) because Christianity and Judaism will end. Every human being will be financially well-off and no one will accept charity. Jesus عليه السلام will perform Hajj (pilgrimage), marry, begets children, and die after living on Earth. His death will signal the beginning of the last days for humanity before the Day of Judgment.

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "In the meantime, while the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down the Messiah son of Mary (Jesus عليه السلام). He (Jesus عليه السلام ) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellowish garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall dead. Then, the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lud (a city 13 miles east of Tel Aviv, Israel), and will kill him." (Sahih Muslim, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah).

Abu Umamah Al-Bahili said, " Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم delivered a speech to us, most of which dealt with the Dajjal (the Anti-Christ) and warned us against him. Umm Sharik bint Abi'l-'Akr said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, where will the Arabs be at that time?’. Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said, "At that time they will be few in number; most of them will be in the Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem), and their Imam will be a righteous man. While their Imam is going forward to lead the people in the morning prayer, Isa (Jesus) son of Mary will descend. The Imam (mahdi) will step back, to let Jesus lead the people in prayer, but Jesus will place his hand between the man's shoulders and say, 'Go forward and lead the prayer, for the Iqamah was made for you.' So the Imam will lead the people in prayer… Jesus son of Mary will be a just ruler and leader of my Ummah (Nation). He will break the cross (with argument), kill the pigs (outlaw raising pigs), and abolish the Jizyah (tax on Christians & Jews). He will not collect the Sadaqah (charity), so he will not collect sheep and camels. Mutual enmity and hatred will disappear. Every harmful animal will be made harmless, so that a small boy will be able to put his hand into a snake's mouth without being harmed, a small girl will be able to make a lion run away from her, and a wolf will go among sheep as if he were a sheepdog. The Earth will be filled with peace as a container is filled with water. People will be in complete agreement, and only Allah will be worshipped. Wars will cease…” (Ibn Majah, Kitab al-Fitan, Tradition No. 4077, 2: 1363)

Blessings at the time of Prophet Jesus عليه السلام

All types of spiritual and worldly blessings will descend on Earth in his time.

- There will be an abundance in wealth. Wealth will flow like water. The Islamic government will be wealthy and all people will be financially well-off, having lots of wealth and property, to the extent that nobody will be in the need of Zakat (tax) and Sadaqa (charity). People will no longer have to pay Zakat and Sadaqa.

- All hearts will be free from misery, envy, malice, and jealousy.

- Each harmful animal will be made harmless. Camels will graze with the lions and the cheetahs with cattle. A little girl will chase a lion and make it run away from her like children chasing a puppy and this lion will not harm her. Venom will be taken out from all venomous animals, a little boy will put his hand in a snake's mouth, but it will not harm him. The wolf will live with the sheep and protect them as if it were a sheep dog.

- Peace, harmony and tranquillity will prevail in the world. People will be in complete agreement, wars will cease, the earth will be filled with peace like a silver basin and it will sprout with vegetation like at the time of Prophet Adam عليه السلام .

- The fertility of the land will increase to the extent that if a seed is planted in a rock, it will sprout. 700 mudd of wheat will sprout without ploughing the land. The Earth will produce so much fruit that a large group of people will sit to eat a bunch of grapes or a pomegranate and they will be satisfied and use it's peel as an umbrella.

- There will also be blessing in milk. The milk of a single she camel will be sufficient to satisfy the hunger of a large group of people. A cow will produce what is sufficient for a tribe of people, and a sheep will produce milk, which is sufficient for a family of people.

- Horses will be cheap as they will be never ridden in war and bulls will be expensive, as they will be needed to plough the land.

- Life will be very pleasant and enjoyable after Jesus' descent from Heaven and people will live in comfortably during Jesus' reign as a Muslim Caliph.

(Nawwas bin Sarnaan /Muslim and Abu Umamah/Ibn Majah)

true peace will come to earth when imam mahdi & prophet Isa (jesus) will come to this world............based from islamic propechy

Insha Allah SWT.....................if God willing...........
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
So when the prophesy says "when he does wrong, I will reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of men. (or possibly, "Adam.")", it was a general statement about any of those kings, and not to imply that Jesus himself would "do wrong."

I was contemplating that possibility, but, this is the way I am looking at it,

2Sa 7:11-16 (ESVST) . 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever."
The highlighted verses are prophecy about Jesus. I'm wondering why God would start with a prophecy about Jesus, then talk about other men, then back to Jesus all in the same prophecy.

Believe me, I am a firm believer that Jesus lived a perfect life, how else could He have fulfilled the Mosaic Law. But this has me befuddled!
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
2Sa 7:11-17 (ESVST) . Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. "When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men," 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. '" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. (emphasis mine)

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. I believe it's referring to Jesus.
I'm not sure if context means anything to you as a Christian. But I'd just like to point out that since it was Solomon who built the Temple, we can conclusively say that the "He" and "his" in verse 13 is referring to Solomon. And since no other person is introduced between verses 13 and verse 14, we can conclude that the "him" and "he" of verse 14 is likewise referring to Solomon.

I have absolutely 0% understanding how in the world you can introduce Jesus into a prophecy that is pretty clearly referring to Solomon. I mean, I've seen you guys do it all the time. It just never makes any sense to me.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
2Sa 7:11-17 (ESVST) . Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. "When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men," 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. '" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. (emphasis mine)

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. I believe it's referring to Jesus.
I believe Jesus can commit no iniquity. Maybe it refers to the body of Christ with Christ as Head. 144,001. The one is Jesus Christ. The 144,000 is a secret.

1 Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body,+ so too is the Christ.13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I have absolutely 0% understanding how in the world you can introduce Jesus into a prophecy that is pretty clearly referring to Solomon. I mean, I've seen you guys do it all the time. It just never makes any sense to me.

So you're saying that verses 12, 13, 14a, 15 and 16 are about Solomon? How do you get Solomon out of that?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if context means anything to you as a Christian. But I'd just like to point out that since it was Solomon who built the Temple, we can conclusively say that the "He" and "his" in verse 13 is referring to Solomon. And since no other person is introduced between verses 13 and verse 14, we can conclude that the "him" and "he" of verse 14 is likewise referring to Solomon.

I have absolutely 0% understanding how in the world you can introduce Jesus into a prophecy that is pretty clearly referring to Solomon. I mean, I've seen you guys do it all the time. It just never makes any sense to me.

Context does mean a big deal, but this prophesy did not see a complete fulfillment in Solomon.

Verse 16 reads:

"Your house and your kingdom will be secure forever before you; your throne will be firmly established forever."

How can we be certain that the meaning of the Hebrew o'lam here is "forever" and not "many years"? The 89th Psalm equates David's throne to endure like the sun and to be firmly established as the moon. (Ps 89:35-37)
Solomon did not live long enough to have that proved true, and the throne was emptied for a time starting with Zechariah being deported to Babylon.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Context does mean a big deal, but this prophesy did not see a complete fulfillment in Solomon.

Verse 16 reads:

"Your house and your kingdom will be secure forever before you; your throne will be firmly established forever."

How can we be certain that the meaning of the Hebrew o'lam here is "forever" and not "many years"? The 89th Psalm equates David's throne to endure like the sun and to be firmly established as the moon. (Ps 89:35-37)
Solomon did not live long enough to have that proved true, and the throne was emptied for a time starting with Zechariah being deported to Babylon.
So you're saying that verse 16 is referring to Jesus too? That's even worse! This verse is in second person, not third: its what Nathan was commanded to tell David.
Let's start from the beginning:

8. And now, so shall you say to David my servant, "So said G-d of Hosts, 'I took you from the sheep pen, from behind the sheep, to be a leader over my nation over Israel.
This is what G-d told Nathan to tell David. David was a shepherd and G-d made him into a king.

9. And I will be with you, wherever you go. And I shall cut down all your enemies before you. And I will make you a great name. Like the names of the great ones that are in the land.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that He will always be with David. And He will take down David's enemies and make him famous.

10. And I will make a place for my nation Israel and I will plant him. And he shall dwell under it.and he shall not be disturbed again. And the sons of sinners will no longer afflict him as at first.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that He using tree metaphors that He plans to have Israel settled securely and peacefully in the land.

11. And from the day I commanded Judges (to lead) over my nation. And I will give you rest from all your enemies. And G-d is tell you, that G-d will make you a house.
The first part of this verse is a continuation of the previous verse. G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that He plans to settle Israel peacefully and not like how it was in the times of the Judges. The verse ends of with G-d telling Nathan to tell David that he (David) will begin a house of kinship, ie. future kings will be from the house of David.

12. When your days are filled, and you lay with your fathers. And I shall establish your seed after you, that has come out of your stomach. And I shall establish his kingdom.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that after David dies, G-d will establish his son Solomon as the king after him.

13. He will build a house for my Name. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that Solomon will be the one to build the Temple. And G-d will establish Solomon's throne forever. Obviously Solomon dies. However, all future kings of Judah as well as the eventual messiah, are only through the Solomonic line.

14. I will be for him as a father, and he will be for Me as a son that in his sin and I shall chastise him with the rod of of men and the plagues of the sons of man.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that He will treat Solomon like his own son, chastising him when he goes astray. G-d does this through people like Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian both of whom were Solomon's enemies.

15. And my kindness will not be removed from him as I removed it from Saul which I removed from before you.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that He will not remove the kingship from Solomon as He did from Saul in favor of David.

16. And your house and your kingdom shall be trusted until eternity, before you. Your chair shall be established forever.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that David's kingship is an eternal one. Only the Davidic line (through Solomon per verse 13) has a legitimate claim to the throne. As opposed to Saul, the kings of Israel and the Hasmoneans whose kingships were temporary.

The verses here are not meant to be understood literally, that David will always be the king, because David does die as does Solomon. We see the same type of prophecy to Judah, from Jacob "the rod shall not be removed from Judah". How could Jacob prophecy that when Judah wasn't even the king for the rod to be removed from him? Rather it means that only the tribe of Judah has a legitimate claim to the throne. Until David came. Then only the sons of David had a legitimate claim to the throne. Until Solomon came. Then only the sons of Solomon had a legitimate claim to the throne.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
16. And your house and your kingdom shall be trusted until eternity, before you. Your chair shall be established forever.
G-d is telling Nathan to tell David that David's kingship is an eternal one. Only the Davidic line (through Solomon per verse 13) has a legitimate claim to the throne. As opposed to Saul, the kings of Israel and the Hasmoneans whose kingships were temporary.

The verses here are not meant to be understood literally, that David will always be the king, because David does die as does Solomon. We see the same type of prophecy to Judah, from Jacob "the rod shall not be removed from Judah". How could Jacob prophecy that when Judah wasn't even the king for the rod to be removed from him? Rather it means that only the tribe of Judah has a legitimate claim to the throne. Until David came. Then only the sons of David had a legitimate claim to the throne. Until Solomon came. Then only the sons of Solomon had a legitimate claim to the throne.

I don't see what the disagreement is there - other than if Jesus did not legally inherit the firstborn right to the kingship. The genealogy recorded at Matthew 1:6-17 traces the legal right through is adoptive father Joseph. (Natural decent thru Mary was shown in Luke 3:23-31).

The issue with Jesus is that prevalent belief that the person that inherited the right would still be human when the representative* kingship would be reestablished.
But Daniel 7:13-14 shows that the rulership would be given in the spiritual heavens by Jehovah himself. A man can no longer be human if he was to survive seeing the face of God.

"I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."
- Daniel 7:13:14

*The Kings of Judah "sat on Jehovah's throne." Their kingship was a representation of Jehovah's authority.
"And Solomon sat on Jehovah's throne as king in place of David his father." - 1 Chron 29:23a
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
2Sa 7:11-17 (ESVST) . Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. "When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men," 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. '" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David. (emphasis mine)

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. I believe it's referring to Jesus.

It's about any human being. The house is the temple which is the mind.
The kingdom is within.

Offspring are seeds of wisdom and knowledge, which come from dendrites and are neurons in the brain.

The house is built within.

Sons of men: a son is a conscious seed of thought (manchild): conscious thoughts of mankind.

Daughters of men: daughter is a seed of emotion: emotions of mankind.

Children in scripture are not literal. They are seeds in the brain. (Neurons)

The throne established is higher consciousness reached. The Christ conscious. Divine marriage of husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious). The two becoming one and whole(holy) and no longer separated.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't see what the disagreement is there - other than if Jesus did not legally inherit the firstborn right to the kingship. The genealogy recorded at Matthew 1:6-17 traces the legal right through is adoptive father Joseph. (Natural decent thru Mary was shown in Luke 3:23-31).

The issue with Jesus is that prevalent belief that the person that inherited the right would still be human when the representative* kingship would be reestablished.
But Daniel 7:13-14 shows that the rulership would be given in the spiritual heavens by Jehovah himself. A man can no longer be human if he was to survive seeing the face of God.

"I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."
- Daniel 7:13:14

*The Kings of Judah "sat on Jehovah's throne." Their kingship was a representation of Jehovah's authority.
"And Solomon sat on Jehovah's throne as king in place of David his father." - 1 Chron 29:23a
No, that's not what I'm saying. Although obvioulsy I disagree with all that s well.
I'm saying that this was not a prophecy about who would be sitting on the throne in the future. Its a prophecy that the throne will always belong to the Davidic line. Its a prophecy about Solomon, Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat, etc. That's what I'm saying. Not a prophecy about Jesus. Its about the Davidic line.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Context does mean a big deal, but this prophesy did not see a complete fulfillment in Solomon.

Verse 16 reads:

"Your house and your kingdom will be secure forever before you; your throne will be firmly established forever."

How can we be certain that the meaning of the Hebrew o'lam here is "forever" and not "many years"? The 89th Psalm equates David's throne to endure like the sun and to be firmly established as the moon. (Ps 89:35-37)
Solomon did not live long enough to have that proved true, and the throne was emptied for a time starting with Zechariah being deported to Babylon.
There are 3 possibilities:
Olam means "for a certain long time" but that time isn't known (because it could mean "for a long duration" without giving a specific period). So the Davidic dynasty either ended, or it didn't. If it did, then no one ever need claim to be of the family of David to ascend, if it didn't a king must be Davidic. We just don't know. Gospel accounts of anyone claiming to be of the Davidic line (ignoring the cure issue) indicate the belief that the time of Olam had not ended.
Olam means "for 50 years". Then it was done soon after it was established and any later reference to a Davidic dynasty is in error.
Olam means "forever" and the need for a Davidic line continues to this day as the rulership resides in that family line.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
It's about any human being. The house is the temple which is the mind.
The kingdom is within.

Offspring are seeds of wisdom and knowledge, which come from dendrites and are neurons in the brain.

The house is built within.

Sons of men: a son is a conscious seed of thought (manchild): conscious thoughts of mankind.

Daughters of men: daughter is a seed of emotion: emotions of mankind.

Children in scripture are not literal. They are seeds in the brain. (Neurons)

The throne established is higher consciousness reached. The Christ conscious. Divine marriage of husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious). The two becoming one and whole(holy) and no longer separated.
so the part where the text explicitly says that Nathan tells this to David and David's son builds a physical temple is all wrong?
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
so the part where the text explicitly says that Nathan tells this to David and David's son builds a physical temple is all wrong?

Solomon's temple is an internal temple built.

Has all internalized meaning with deep spiritual symbolism and metaphors.
 
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