Is Torture a Christian Value?

[DakotaGypsy]

I'd like to start this thread out with a letter from a New York Times reader:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/07/opinion/l07torture.html

March 7, 2006

Tortured Soul
To the Editor:
In "Tortured Logic" (Op-Ed, Feb. 28), Anthony Lagouranis says, "Perhaps, I have thought for a long time, I also deserve to be prosecuted." Similarly, all of us who by our silence condone the acts of Abu Ghraib share that guilt.
As Mr. Lagouranis says, "No slope is more slippery, I learned in Iraq, than the one that leads to torture."
It is our relative silence and disengagement that permit Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and the Bush administration to continue policies that grease the slope in our names.
Emery Roth II -- Washington Depot, Conn., Feb. 28, 2006

 

[jewscout]

One could look at Stalin and ask the same thing about values of an Atheistic society

 

[Mike182]

for what its worth, i would never torture someone.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

The United States is a Christian nation. Its president says that "Jesus is my favorite philosopher."

I am puzzled. Would Jesus torture?

This Atheist has read a goodly bit of the Bible and even has some favorite Bible verses. I just don't recall Jesus advocating torture.

And, what's this about the United States not needing to heed the Geneva Conventions? Are the Geneva Conventions unChristian?

 

[jewscout]

Its president says that "Jesus is my favorite philosopher."

he also says:



<FONT face=Verdana>"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself." —Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003<FONT size=2>

 

[kevmicsmi]

The United States is a Christian nation. Its president says that "Jesus is my favorite philosopher."

I am puzzled. Would Jesus torture?

This Atheist has read a goodly bit of the Bible and even has some favorite Bible verses. I just don't recall Jesus advocating torture.

And, what's this about the United States not needing to heed the Geneva Conventions? Are the Geneva Conventions unChristian?

We dont adhere to the Geneva conventions because the people we fight dont adhere to the Geneva conventions.I dont know what you consider torture, and I dont think torture is christioan in nature, but there are many things a country has to do to protect its interests that do not fall in line with Christs teachings. Sad but true

 

[Smoke]

One could look at Stalin and ask the same thing about values of an Atheistic society

Stalinism is a specific kind of atheism. Would you like to lump all the theists together, and associate Judaism with all the crimes of Christians and Muslims through the ages?

 

[Smoke]

We dont adhere to the Geneva conventions because the people we fight dont adhere to the Geneva conventions.

The administration doesn't adhere to the Geneva Conventions because the administration is without honor. Our commitment to the Geneva Conventions is not supposed to depend on whether every criminal in the world adheres to them.

I dont know what you consider torture, and I dont think torture is christioan in nature, but there are many things a country has to do to protect its interests

How, exactly, does torture protect our interests?

there are many things a country has to do to protect its interests that do not fall in line with Christs teachings. Sad but true

So, in other words:

• It's not always practical to follow the teachings of Jesus.
• The interests of the United States are of greater importance than the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Mike182]

you cannot trust any evidence aquired under torture, so what is the point of it?

 

[Opethian]

This rhino has hit the nail on the head, oh wait, he has a nail on his head

 

[Jaymes]

We dont adhere to the Geneva conventions because the people we fight dont adhere to the Geneva conventions.

"Moooom, he started it!"

In response to the OP, no, I don't think torture is a Christian value. It is a value that our society--which is coincidentally Christian--happens to see as permissable. They do here, anyway. Then again, where I live isn't the best of rulers with which to judge the rest of the US... I regularly hear here that we need to just nuke everyone in the Middle East and be done with it.

 

[Opethian]

Torture is definitely a christian value. For christ's sake! (pun intended), the J dude got nailed in the cross!

Oh wait, he got nailed on the cross. At least that's a bit less painful...

 

[kevmicsmi]

The administration doesn't adhere to the Geneva Conventions because the administration is without honor. Our commitment to the Geneva Conventions is not supposed to depend on whether every criminal in the world adheres to them.


How, exactly, does torture protect our interests?


So, in other words:

• It's not always practical to follow the teachings of Jesus.
• The interests of the United States are of greater importance than the teachings of Jesus.

The Geneva convention was an agreement BETWEEN NATIONS. Al queda, and other non uniformed combatants did not agree to the treaty therefore it is invalid. Crimiinals in our country are afforded less than pow's under the geneva conventions. Are you seriously telling me that when we catch an illegal combatant, all we should be able to ask them is name rank and serial number? OUTRAGEOUS!

How does torture protect our interests?

First off, please define what you consider torture, secondly, in every day practice, true torture does not protect our interest, however, are you telling me that if you captured someone, who you KNEW had intimate details on an attack that could kill tens of thousands of people, and you had limited time, you would not want your government to have every tool at their disposal to make the man talk?

Your last two questions are great questions, and I think would make an excellent thread....Quickly I would say that Jesus was a private citizen, not a politician, and never spoke on how to conduct a war. Secondly, I would say yes, the interests of the USA are more important than the teachings of jesus if you are charged with protecting the US.

Like I said, its sad, but that is how it has always been, and if we want to stay safe, there will always be things that are done that none of us principally like, but they still need to be done

 

[Ody]

One could look at Stalin and ask the same thing about values of an Atheistic society

Or Hitler, or Mao...

 

[Ody]

Or Hitler, or Mao...

But either way you should not view an entire view on religion based on the actions of a few.

 

[Karl R]

The Geneva convention was an agreement BETWEEN NATIONS. Al queda, and other non uniformed combatants did not agree to the treaty therefore it is invalid. Crimiinals in our country are afforded less than pow's under the geneva conventions. Are you seriously telling me that when we catch an illegal combatant, all we should be able to ask them is name rank and serial number? OUTRAGEOUS!

George Bush decided that the people suspected of being involved with Al Qaeda were POWs. That's because he wanted to deny them of the rights afforded to criminals ... especially their right to a speedy trial (Ammendment VI of the Bill of Rights).

If they're criminals, torturing them violates their rights (Ammendment V and VIII). If they're POWs, torture violates the Geneva conventions. In either case, it's against the law.

are you telling me that if you captured someone, who you KNEW had intimate details on an attack that could kill tens of thousands of people, and you had limited time,

Under these circumstances, I'd torture them myself.

Then I'd willingly pay the consequences for breaking the law. The mitigating circumstances would probably be taken into account.

If president Bush has to break the law under these circumstances, he'll have to face a Senate hearing. The mitigating circumstances will probably be taken into account. If not, he'll lose his job. If he's not willing to risk his career to save tens of thousands of people, he doesn't deserve to be president.


If a law was passed to permit torture, do you think it would just get used in extreme cases? I suspect it would start getting used a bit more often than that.

 

[Majikthise]

The United States is a Christian nation. Its president says that "Jesus is my favorite philosopher."

I am puzzled. Would Jesus torture?

This Atheist has read a goodly bit of the Bible and even has some favorite Bible verses. I just don't recall Jesus advocating torture.

And, what's this about the United States not needing to heed the Geneva Conventions? Are the Geneva Conventions unChristian?

I am a US citizen, served in the armed forces for six years , and I am an atheist. For the record , my military service was for patriotic reasons more than personal gain, and I am still ,to this day, happy with the choice I made.
Though christianity may be deeply rooted in American history we still have many provisions for separation of church and state. Goerge Bush is not a spiritual as well as political leader in the US ,as is the case in other nations where phyiscal punishment is an option for those who would dare to even speak out against the state approved religion. This , in fact ,is what we often have to deal with.
You call yourself an atheist, so think before you speak.
Torture is not based on any religion , and to suppose this to be truth shows your own ignorance of basic human psychology.
If you are merely trying to flame christians, believe me, most on this site are to smart for that juvenile dung.

Dan

 

[turk179]

The United States is a Christian nation. Its president says that "Jesus is my favorite philosopher."

Yup and he also said - "You took an oath to defend our flag and our freedom, and you kept that oath underseas and under fire."

He also said - "Those who enter the country illegally violate the law."

He also said - "We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."

Stalinism is a specific kind of atheism. Would you like to lump all the theists together, and associate Judaism with all the crimes of Christians and Muslims through the ages?

Isn't that what the op did, which is what jewscout was referring to?

To answer the question, I believe that Torture is not a Christian value. To say that it is would be like saying that killing babies is a Wiccan value or being an @&*hole is an atheist value.

 

[kevmicsmi]

George Bush decided that the people suspected of being involved with Al Qaeda were POWs. That's because he wanted to deny them of the rights afforded to criminals ... especially their right to a speedy trial (Ammendment VI of the Bill of Rights).

If they're criminals, torturing them violates their rights (Ammendment V and VIII). If they're POWs, torture violates the Geneva conventions. In either case, it's against the law.

That is why they are determined to be illegal combatants, not criminals, not POW's

Tho be a criminal in our justice system, you must be IN the United States, charged with a federal, state, local Crime. They are not

 

[Smoke]

The Geneva convention was an agreement BETWEEN NATIONS. Al queda, and other non uniformed combatants did not agree to the treaty therefore it is invalid. Crimiinals in our country are afforded less than pow's under the geneva conventions. Are you seriously telling me that when we catch an illegal combatant, all we should be able to ask them is name rank and serial number? OUTRAGEOUS!

Are we at war, as Bush says, or not? If we are at war, so are they.

But the question is whether torture is a Christian value. Since you're a Christian, and you support torture, I take it you think torture is compatible with Christianity?

are you telling me that if you captured someone, who you KNEW had intimate details on an attack that could kill tens of thousands of people, and you had limited time, you would not want your government to have every tool at their disposal to make the man talk?

Give me one example of that happening in real life. One case in which tens of thousands of lives were saved by torture.

Your last two questions are great questions, and I think would make an excellent thread....Quickly I would say that Jesus was a private citizen, not a politician, and never spoke on how to conduct a war.

Jesus never spoke on how to conduct a war because his teachings absolutely preclude the possibility of participating in a war.

Secondly, I would say yes, the interests of the USA are more important than the teachings of jesus if you are charged with protecting the US.

So if it's impossible for public officials to follow the teachings of Jesus, is it possible for a public official to be a Christian? Or is it just that Christians should not follow the teachings of Jesus unless it seems expedient to do so?