sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
And that makes it irrelevant?
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Is Trinity in the Bible?
- Thread starter Yasin
- Start date
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This particular rendering has been taken out of the bible because it was viewed as an interpolation. This particular verse could not be found in earlier manuscripts. 32 scholars backed by 50 cooperating christian denominations aprroved the RSV. No muslim influence and no jewish influence to do this. This was done by the christian community.
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
I dont know Scott, im just quoting what i see.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Jesus, in His Own words, never claims to be God or co-equal with God. Full of the Spirit, of course He was, but the Spirit is not God, but an outpouring of grace and mercy. We can all be full of that to the utmost of our capacity. That capacity can grow, but we never "become" God. Jesus never became God either.
Regards,
Scott
reformed christian
New Member
The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, however there are several verses that reference the tri-une God.
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Notice "in the name" singular (1 God) Then the 3 persons within the 1 God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
God said (singular) "Let US (plural) make man... One God, three persons within the Godhead.
Then the same thing is seen in Gen 11:6-7 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
One LORD, more than one person working.
Here the Trinity is seen working together in salvation for God's elect:
1 Pet 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
These are just a few examples.
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Notice "in the name" singular (1 God) Then the 3 persons within the 1 God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
God said (singular) "Let US (plural) make man... One God, three persons within the Godhead.
Then the same thing is seen in Gen 11:6-7 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
One LORD, more than one person working.
Here the Trinity is seen working together in salvation for God's elect:
1 Pet 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
These are just a few examples.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Reformed,
The first quotation has been dealt with.
The other quotation use the "deific we", which is like the "editorial we" or the "royal we".
It is a grammar usage that is similar to the same usage in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.
The Queen says "We are not amused." She is referring to no one but herself, after all.
Regards,
Scott
The first quotation has been dealt with.
The other quotation use the "deific we", which is like the "editorial we" or the "royal we".
It is a grammar usage that is similar to the same usage in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.
The Queen says "We are not amused." She is referring to no one but herself, after all.
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
While it is true that the word trinity is not in the bible we are all passed that point. We are most interested if there is information to suggest or is direct that the trinity concept is in the scripture. Indeed no such information is available. From the OT up through the 4 gospels the concept of trinity is not there. Beyond the 4 gospels we read the opinions and some letters of men suggesting Yeshua is God. We furthur observe that some opinions are coming from those who never met Yeshua or heard him speak.
As I indicated earlier this verse was not quoted by Eusebius. While searching around I read he was a bishop in the church. This is how he quoted it.
Eusebius quoted it as;
“Mt. 28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mt. 28:19: Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name:
Mt. 28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Quotation found in his “Oration in praise of the Emperor Constantine,” Chapter XVI, (335 A.D.), in “The Church History of Eusebius”, Book III, Chapter V (324 A.D.). in his Demonstratio Evangelica Book III, Chapter 6 (318 A.D.), in his Theophania
It would appear the manuscript he was reading from didn't contain this verse at all. I can't remember but I believe the Septuagint translators were most likely still translating the OT and/or beginning to take on the translation of the NT around that time. So, again, whatever manuscript he was using did not contain this verse.
This is pure speculation. Just because it said "Let Us" does not mean it's speaking of the trinity. The way that verse is laid out gives the impression God is speaking to some one or a group. Surely you don't believe God was talking to himself when that statement was made?
Again, it says "come let us go".....This does not sound like a single being. It sounds like a single being speaking to someone or possibly a group. These Genesis references are poor examples to use to try and show trinity and if you tried this with jews you'd be chased out of town.
Here it is in plain english.......
1Peter 1:1,2
1 This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God's chosen people who are living as foreigners in the lands of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia.
2 God the Father chose you long ago, and the Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed Jesus Christ and are cleansed by his blood. May you have more and more of God's special favor and wonderful peace.
Nothing in those verses suggest trinity. In fact the rest of that particular chapter Peter sets God and Yeshua apart and does not show that they are the same. He does show however, like Yeshua showed that God and Yeshua were one in purpose.
1 Peter 1: 20,21
20 God chose him for this purpose long before the world began, but now in these final days, he was sent to the earth for all to see. And he did this for you.
God chose Yeshua long before the world was. We know Yeshua existed before the world was because he told us so plainly... in John 17:5. And we know Yeshua was (SENT) by God....because he told us over and over and over. In order to be sent there must be a sender. We know Yeshua was not God because He told us he was sent, not by his own will but the will of the one who sent him (john 6:38). Surely God does not have two wills? And as Peter rightfully says....God sent Yeshua to earth.
21 Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And because God raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory, your faith and hope can be placed confidently in God.
See how he separates the two? Peter did not see Yeshua as God incarnate or as part of a trinity. Everything he says is true according to how Yeshua expressed it as we observe the following;
John 13:31,32
31 As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, "The time has come for me, the Son of Man, to enter into my glory, and God will receive glory because of all that happens to me.
32 If God is given glory in him, God will give him glory in himself, and will give him glory even now
as well as....;
John 17:24,25
24 Father, I want these whom you've given me to be with me, so they can see my glory. You gave me the glory because you loved me even before the world began!
All in keeping with what Peter said. If yeshua was God then how could God love him before the world was? We know that Yeshua existed separately from God and and had his own will as seen in John 6:38 and we know Yeshua pre-exisited (WITH) his god as observed in John 17:5 and 24. So if God loved him, bestowed spirit and glory on him, taught him and commanded him what he should say how could he be God. Mind you most of this was done before he was sent to earth.
25 "O righteous Father, the world doesn't know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me.
Complete harmony. His followeres did not take him to be God. They understood that the living God was the one who sent Yeshua into the world to relay the good news. Yeshua and God were one in purpose but not one in the same.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You only asked for Scriptural proof. You failed to say which part of Scripture you would accept. Obviously it is only the part you agree with. All of Scripture is what is supposed to shape your thinking not accepting that part which conforms to your thinking.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Or the translation is correct and it's a proper use of the plural.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
You don't understand that "Elohim IS a plural, used in the same sense that English allows a sovereign to use the first person plural when speaking.
Grammar is telling in this instance.
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
You are so right here...
I can't remember but I think the beginning are of Genesis is the only place we find this. I could be wrong though....
But if we look at Gen 1:26 it says And Elohim said...let us create....
It sets Elohim separate from anyone else as if God was speaking to some one or a group. So those that argue this showes trinity is presenting a weak argument as observed by the next verse.
1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.
Elohim has always been single never triune.....
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
So is the term cherubim and it is clearly used as a singular in a few instances. Using a plural noun to describe a singular entity with multile characteristics is also a proper use of Elohim. A good analogy would be the term bunch when describing a single bunch of grapes.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Okay, this is from the Masoretic text not the Septaguint:
"1,24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so. 1,25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 1,26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 1,27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 1,28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 1,29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed -- to you it shall be for food; 1,30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 1,31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. {P}
2,1 And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2,2 And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. 2,3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made. {P}"
(Torah (Law), B'reishis (Genesis))
Do you see a singular or plural description of God?
Regards,
Scott
"1,24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so. 1,25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 1,26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 1,27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 1,28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 1,29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed -- to you it shall be for food; 1,30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 1,31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. {P}
2,1 And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2,2 And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. 2,3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made. {P}"
(Torah (Law), B'reishis (Genesis))
Do you see a singular or plural description of God?
Regards,
Scott
Francine
Well-Known Member
We are not amused!
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
And the Sultan is reputed to have said: "We had quite forgotten the fart."
Regards,
Scott
Muffled
Jesus in me
You can speculate on the "we" all you like but I don't know of any evidence that supports anyone's speculations.
Since I don't believe in a triumvirate Godhead, I do not see the Son and Paraclete as existing before Jesus. I believe there is sufficient evidence to support the fact that God is in Jesus and the Paraclete. God is a spirit which is an identifiable entity not simply an emotion. God inhabits Jesus just as our spirits inhabit our bodies. In the case of the Paraclete God inhabits us without us having to leave. That fulfills the meaning of Paraclete which is: The one comes along beside.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Did you mean to say "Son and Paraclete as existing before God?"
If so then you are correct. There is no information available in the scriptures that the spirit of God or Yeshua existed before God. The scriptures show that the "spirit of God" to be an active force given to help man in a particular way. There is no information outside of the writer's opinion that Yeshua existed before the foundation of the universe. There are a couple verses from Yeshua that inform us he existed before the foundation of the earth and he was not alone. The scripture show he was with his god before the earth was being formed. So there is sufficient evidence from Yeshua that he was not God because he existed before the world was created and he had glory in the beginning before the world was created with his god. There is sufficient evidence to show from Yeshua that his god sent him into the world to complete a task. There is sufficient evidence that shows that after he was no more on earth he and God remained to be separate but remained to be one in purpose.
No argument here. The scripture shows that God used Yeshua as the instrument to perform his will. Additionally we know from the scripture that God blesses Yeshua with the holy spirit and the spirit of God was with Yeshua.
Well that is certainly not enough for a person to be God because he is filled with the holy spirit. There were plenty in the scriptures filled with the holy spirit and none of them were God. So far no one has ever taken the prophet Haggai to be God incarnate considering the appearance of God speaking directly through Haggai to the people.