Is Trump / MAGA / the US Fascist?

Copernicus · Oct 25, 2024

Stevicus said:
I can't watch the video at the moment, but I think perhaps a possible strategy might have been to talk around Trump rather than to Trump or about Trump. I think the goal should have been to gain the hearts and minds of the voters to steer them away from Trump.

I think that people would love to see that happen, but my take on it is that news organizations know their audiences much better than we do. If they choose to talk around Trump, people will simply gravitate to a platform where they aren't talking around the "elephant in the room". Let's face it. There may be no other way for a news organization to deal with a threat to democracy than to have faith in itself. And sometimes that faith will fail. After all, a lot of people are drawn to watch horror movies. They pay attention to things that make them afraid.

The media does do a fair amount of "sanewashing" of Donald Trump. I get that criticism of media coverage by Charlamagne, although he did not use that term to describe it. However, I think that Anderson Cooper was largely correct that they do actually report what Trump says. Repeating that same line every day will only turn them into another version of Fox News or MSNBC--outlets that spend more time on advocacy and editorializing than actual reporting on news events. It won't stop Donald Trump. It just may not be possible to save ourselves from what may be about to happen--Trump supporters getting what they wished for.

Pogo · Oct 25, 2024

Copernicus said:
I think that people would love to see that happen, but my take on it is that news organizations know their audiences much better than we do. If they choose to talk around Trump, people will simply gravitate to a platform where they aren't talking around the "elephant in the room". Let's face it. There may be no other way for a news organization to deal with a threat to democracy than to have faith in itself. And sometimes that faith will fail. After all, a lot of people are drawn to watch horror movies. They pay attention to things that make them afraid.

The media does do a fair amount of "sanewashing" of Donald Trump. I get that criticism of media coverage by Charlamagne, although he did not use that term to describe it. However, I think that Anderson Cooper was largely correct that they do actually report what Trump says. Repeating that same line every day will only turn them into another version of Fox News or MSNBC--outlets that spend more time on advocacy and editorializing than actual reporting on news events. It won't stop Donald Trump. It just may not be possible to save ourselves from what may be about to happen--Trump supporters getting what they wished for.

What needed to happen was for the news to report what Trump said and then immediately fact check him with this is not true, this is a gross exageration, here are the facts etc. Don't bother telling us that others disagree, just point out the errors.

Evangelicalhumanist · Oct 25, 2024

Here are some things Trump has said:

Re: Hurricane Helena "Fema has done a poor job, spending money on taking in illegal immigrants, maybe so they could vote in the election."

"She's lazy as hell, and she's got that reputation."

"There's something wrong with her...she's slow, a low IQ or something, I don't know what the hell it is..."

Tell me, which of these is a true statement for which you could provide any evidence of any kind whatsoever?

Then I'll ask the more intelligent members to tell me which of them is pure Trump projection -- labelling Harris with his own shortcomings?

And finally, which of them are useful in something as important as an American election?

Copernicus · Oct 25, 2024

Pogo said:
What needed to happen was for the news to report what Trump said and then immediately fact check him with this is not true, this is a gross exageration, here are the facts etc. Don't bother telling us that others disagree, just point out the errors.

I honestly don't think that would make much difference to Trump supporters. My impression is that, by and large, they either don't care or they think he is just Trump being Trump. They are convinced that he won't do anything to threaten them, just the people that they don't much like anyway.

One of Charlamagne's objections about press coverage and the public generally was the double standard that they use with Trump and Harris. Another TV talking head, Van Jones, put it this way: He gets to be lawless, but she has to be flawless. The press goes on and on about her vagueness, but they aren't quite as obsessed with Trump's routine vagueness, exaggerations, and falsehoods. People are too jaded about Trump, but Harris is still somewhat fresh material.

F1fan · Oct 25, 2024

Pogo said:
What needed to happen was for the news to report what Trump said and then immediately fact check him with this is not true, this is a gross exageration, here are the facts etc. Don't bother telling us that others disagree, just point out the errors.

The MAGAs that need to hear it won't use reputable media. And for those who do will say the media is the enemy and biased. It's apparent that the MAGA rhetoric has infected too many minds, even those who think they aren't influenced. I'm seeing some some folks who don't like either candidate or even voting for Harris saying she's a socialist. It's amazing how much trash media infiltrates everything. That might not be control of the media, but it is control over undisciplined minds that reject reputable media.

crossfire · Oct 25, 2024

Estro Felino said:
Brava. Excellent.
That signifies that the term fascism is folkloric and meaningless, since the fasces are present in countless coats of arms.
They are the symbol of the Governmental Apparatuses.

It's not meaningless, by any means. The symbolism itself is descriptive: bind up (by authoritatian means or psychological means) the individual masses (bundle) and motivate them to action (axe). For what purpose is another matter altogether.

Heyo · Oct 25, 2024

Evangelicalhumanist said:
I continue my rant on Trump -- for the first time, he has described the U.S. as a "garbage can." The garbage can where the whole world dumps its trash -- who once upon a time were called "immigrants." You know, people like Trump's own grandfather, and Harris's mother, and the great-greats of all Americans who aren't First Nations!

Now you know all you need to know about America's immigrants and children of immigrants -- they're garbage. They're not as good as you, there not worth what you are, you need to be frightened of them disgusted by them, find a way to expel them from your midst, from ruining your perfect Eden!

Oh, yeah. He's got his supporters nailed down.

Fearmongering about immigrants ("the caravan") is a decades old tactic by the GOP, it wasn't invented by Trump. He just dialled it up to eleven. What made me listen is the new language. "Poisoning the blood of our country" is Nazi speak, blood and soil ideology.
While I have argued that Trump is not a fascist, that linguistic misstep is a clear indicator that he has sympathies for Nazi ideology.

Estro Felino · Oct 26, 2024

When America was great. Make it again.

Estro Felino · Oct 26, 2024

crossfire said:
It's not meaningless, by any means. The symbolism itself is descriptive: bind up (by authoritatian means or psychological means) the individual masses (bundle) and motivate them to action (axe). For what purpose is another matter altogether.

You're very good at symbology.
Can you explain me the meaning of that strange pyramid with the eye on the one dollar bill?

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 29, 2024

Copernicus said:
You tied it to specific elements of historical Nazism. I was merely pointing out that, if you want to go back to historical roots, Mussolini is the source. Hitler, Franco, and others were inspired by the Italian movement. They were just copycats. But, OK, Hitler is the internet standard. I get that.

No, I'm giving you professional advice as someone who has spent many years dealing with definitions and word meanings. The word "fascist" can have more than one meaning. Let's focus on the one that most people are using, not your version of how you wish to define the word.

This is a nonsensical argument. Germany had a lot of laws and regulations, not all of which had anything at all to do with fascism. Just because Hitler's Germany had environmental regulations, that does not mean they had anything to do with fascism.

You're no different from Republicans calling Harris a Communist, just with more pseudo-intellectual smugness. Blah blah blah. You have no "advice" you could offer me here. You're just making up ****, and you've pretty much admitted it in a long-winded way. Words have no meaning except when they agree with you.

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 29, 2024

Estro Felino said:
Fascism was something that ended in 1945,...and it was buried forever by history, by constitutional rights, by progress.

National Socialism was buried in 1945, too. Most of what is called neo-Nazism these days is just American gutter racism with Nazi iconography because they think it's cool or sexy.

stvdv · Oct 29, 2024

Heyo said:
For this debate, I'll use The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003 as a basis. It isn't a definition of fascism, but a collection of characteristics fascist countries had.

01 Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Trump: yes; MAGA: YES; the US: yes

Trump: yes; MAGA: yes; the US: yes

Heyo said:
02 Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Trump: partly; MAGA: yes; US: no