Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[KWED]

You are like a steam-roller.
No, we are not agreed.

But not only have you failed to produce any scholarly opinion to support your position, the Salafist position you suggested supported you turned out to be the exact opposite!
So on what grounds do you still claim that the scholarly consensus is not "too young..."?
(I understand that you personally disagree with the scholarly consensus, but that consensus still remains).

However, it would seem that a majority of Muslims believe that it is OK to marry women at any age, if they have permission from the bride [ and guardian, if any ]

I wonder where they got that idea?

I am not "a scholar", as you know.
..but I am a Muslim father of 6 daughters, and I would not have agreed to them being married until they were young women.

As I have always said, most religionists seem to be better than the religion they follow.

You won't convince me that Islam is flawed in some way.
I see that it is not.

That's just denial fuelled by cognitive dissonance and question begging.

Shouting "paedophile" etc. I just see as inclination to disbelief.

I do not use that term, and I advise others against it. Muhammad's actions in 7th century Arabia were neither morally nor legally unacceptable. However, the same actions today would see him prosecuted for child abuse (as well as war crimes and human rights abuses).
For all other historical figures this would be a meaningless argument - but Muhammad is claimed to be the perfect role model and moral exemplar for all people and all times.
And Islam is claimed to be the perfect, timeless, universal and unchangeable guide for all mankind.
Therefore the passages that condone marriage and sex with children become problematical.

 

[KWED]

Here is what I said
"For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period"

The verse said "Women" I didn't mention any age. The extra words is you putting words into my mouth. Shame on you

You seem to misunderstand.
The term "woman" is vague. You need to specify what you mean by it. Presumably as a Muslim you accept the Islamic definition, which is that a young female becomes a woman on her first period (usually around 9-12 years).
You said that marriage and sex is acceptable once they are "women".
Therefore your position is that marriage and sex is acceptable with "women" as young as 9 years old.

I was not "putting words in your mouth". I was "explaining the implication of the word you used".

 

[muhammad_isa]

I wonder where they got that idea?

You know very well where they got it from..
I don't follow any scholar's tafsir blindly.
Never have, never will.

You can come up with dozens of reputable scholars that copy Ibn Kathir's mistake .. and there are also dozens of scholars who don't.
i.e. they consider that it is not lawful to consummate a marriage with immature girls

 

[KWED]

I don't understand what that means!

It describes the Quran and sunnah by its own standards.

You are wrong, Islamic law can change as long as it doesn't contradict morality

Can you name one of Allah's laws that has changed over the last 1400 years?

Isn't this understood?
"Fiqh is often described as the human understanding and practices of the sharia,[3] that is human understanding of the divine Islamic law as revealed in the Quran and the Sunnah (the teachings and practices of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his companions). Fiqh expands and develops Shariah through interpretation (ijtihad) of the Quran and Sunnah by Islamic jurists (ulama)[3] and is implemented by the rulings (fatwa) of jurists on questions presented to them. Thus, whereas sharia is considered immutable and infallible by Muslims, fiqh is considered fallible and changeable. Fiqh deals with the observance of rituals, morals and social legislation in Islam as well as political system" Source

This contradicts your previous claim that sharia can change...
"Islamic law can change"
"Thus, whereas sharia is considered immutable and infallible"

As I said before, the punishment still stands, but the method might be different.
What you fail to understand is. All punishments in Islam are applied to Muslims, in an Islamic state, and to people who live under Islamic rule

Sorry, but I don't differentiate between victims on the basis of religion or anything else.
A Muslim suffering barbaric punishment is just as worthy of defence as a Christian or Sikh or atheist.

The marriage age in Islam is when a woman reaches the age of marriage,

That is what is known as a "tautology".

she is capable to be married, and it is socially acceptable to be married at that age. If you through numbers here and there to deceive the reader, it doesn't make what you say right

Some societies impose specific numbers. Islam uses a variable - the first period. This could be anywhere between 7 and 15.

Fancy words to avoid the answer - Got it

I have explained it a few times now.

To show you that you can't dictate the age of marriage to people who lived thousands of years before your time. they have their own age of marriage.
But, of course, you changed the subject later because you can't respond to that, and made it about Mohammed, not others LOL

I have never tried to dictate what the age of marriage should have been in 7th century Arabis. That is just your misunderstanding again.
In fact, I have said that it was morally acceptable at the time.

However, Yes, I understand your point. I asked a question that you didn't answer. I ask again
Do you want Muhammed PBUH to follow 2022 social norms while he lived 1400 years ago?

And I have already answered it, but I'll try again in a different way.
No I don't. He was perfectly entitled to live by the cultural and social norms of the place and time where he lived.
The issue is with claiming that he is a perfect example for all those who come after him, and Islam is the perfect system. Which means that people in Europe in 2022 should live by the socio-religious norms of 7th century Arabia.

I don't mean to ignore it
If Mohammed married a woman who reached the age of marriage and was acceptable by society at that time, I have no problem with that. I don't hold Mohammed up to the standards of 2022, I hold him to the standards of his own time

*sigh*
But do you consider him to be the perfect role model and ultimate moral example for all mankind?

That was my conclusion of mine, how can I show you a source?

So you just made up an age? (What is that age, BTW?)

Of course, I do believe

In which case, you believe that whatever he did in 7th century Arabia is morally acceptable in 21st century Europe, in principle - even if it is against the law of the land.
(This is the key issue that you seem to be missing).

You got it all wrong
See my Wikipedia quote and how rules can be changable in Islam

Scholars cannot change Allah's divinely revealed, objective morality. No one can. That is a basic tenet of Islam.
"What Allah has made haram, no man can make halal"

What I am saying is, Mohammed did what was acceptable socially at that time. If Mohammed was alive today, He will do what is acceptable in 2022

So you are saying that Muhammad was just a man of his time, not the perfect role model and moral example for all time.
So if Islam hadn't existed and a person was called by Allah to receive his revelation in 21st century Holland, Islam would have all the cultural hallmarks of 21st century Dutch life. Adultery and homosexuality would be acceptable, as would drinking, prostitution and recreational drug use. And all the metaphors would refer to canals, windmills, bicycles, tulips, etc rather than camels and date palms, etc.

The only thing we know about Aisha is, She was married to the Prophet, and she was a scholar. at what age she got married, that is just people's say and we can't be sure

But the same applies to everything in Islam. All we have are unverifiable accounts.
The accepted records by your own standard (sahih hadith from the Bukhari and Muslim collections) state her age unequivocally.

That is just what others say, they are humans, and there is nothing sure.

Again, that applies to everything in Islam. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

(I am not denying or approving) but, let's think about it logically,

Before she was engaged to the prophet, she was engaged to someone else. If she got engaged to the prophet at age of 6.
- Does it mean that her first engagement was 5 or 4?

Or 6.

- Where is the golden rule in Islam that says the woman must agree before marriage?
- At age of 4 or 5 she can't really make that decision

As far as I can see, until a girl is a woman (first period), her father makes all her decisions for her.

The whole thing doesn't make sense

So a father betrothing his young daughter to their tribal leader in 7th century Arabia makes no sense, but the moon splitting in two, a flood deep enough to cover mountains, a wall of iron and brass between two mountain peaks containing a race of mythical beasts that has remained hidden from humanity for thousands of years, all make perfect sense to you?

I addressed that above. If you don't like the answer, it doesn't mean I have no addressed it

You thought you had addressed it, but you merely addressed your own misunderstanding.

 

[KWED]

Of course, it is 100% of the scholars you wanted to quote LOL
Self service evidence

They are all renowned, authoritative, Islamic scholars. They are all the tafsir that I have access to. If you have similarly respected scholars with a different position, feel free to present them. I am more that happy to change my position on the basis of evidence, but so far all you have presented is your own opinion.

 

[KWED]

People hold different positions on the topic..

Here is an article in the Guardian newspaer that says the deputy grand imam of al-Azhar has issued a fatwa against child marriage, saying marriage should be based on the consent of both parties and “particularly the young woman”.
Senior Islamic cleric issues fatwa against child marriage

“Marriage in Islam is based on the consent of both parties, particularly the young woman. Such consent requires the young woman to have reached the age of maturity and reason, so that her consent is validly given,” the fatwa read, adding that this age was 18, and quoting parts of the Qur’an and the hadiths of the prophet Muhammad to support it.

That is excellent news.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of any supreme authority or hierarchical structure, people with a different agenda can simply find a different scholar with a different opinion - like the one I quoted (which, incidentally, is consistently one of the highest ranked Islamic website, with over 10 million visits each month)

Islam teaches that that people should follow the law prescribed by the nation you live in, unless it contradicts that which is prohibited by God.

That is debatable, but it doesn't alter what the Quran and sunnah say about marriage and sex with young girls. (And remember that in Islam you don't have to be married to her, you can also own her as a slave or captive).

 

[KWED]

You know very well where they got it from..

Yes, from the Quran, sunnah and tafsir - as one is supposed to.

I don't follow any scholar's tafsir blindly.
Never have, never will.

You don't have to. But the fact remains that the consensus of scholarly opinion is that the passage is referring to those too young to have started menstruation.

You can come up with dozens of reputable scholars that copy Ibn Kathir's mistake .. and there are also dozens of scholars who don't.

Any yet you still have not presented any tafsir that interpret that passage differently.
And calling their options wrong is just your opinion. You really seem to be out on a theological limb here.

i.e. they consider that it is not lawful to consummate a marriage with immature girls

The key term there is "immature". In Islam, a girl is considered "mature" once she has had her first period. This can be as young as 7 and is usually between 9 and 12. It may well be illegal under the laws of men but under the laws of god, a girl who has had her first period can marry.
Here's another fatwa from the web's most popular Islamic advice site. Early marriage for girls - Islamweb - Fatwas

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the fact remains that the consensus of scholarly opinion..

I don't believe that..
You just quote from this scholar or that .. this website or that..

If you enter the mosques and ask their Imams about the issue, they will overwhelmingly not condone marriage of minors .. you can wrangle with scholars/websites to your heart's content

 

[KWED]

I don't believe that..

Yes, I understand that you choose to ignore the scholarly consensus.

You just quote from this scholar or that .. this website or that..

And all those sources agree. That's how "scholarly consensus" works.

If you enter the mosques and ask their Imams about the issue, they will overwhelmingly not condone marriage of minors .. you can wrangle with scholars/websites to your heart's content

This is where the cognitive dissonance kicks in.
They will quite possibly say that they don't condone the marriage of minors, but if you ask if they agree with the scholarly consensus on 65:4, they will quite likely say they do.
Same with domestic violence. Ask if they condemn it and they will quite probably say yes. Ask if they disagree with 34:4, they will undoubtedly say no.
Their own personal morality conflicts with Allah's, and so turmoil ensues.

As I always say, religionists are often better than the religion they follow.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Their own personal morality conflicts with Allah's, and so turmoil ensues..

That is not the reason..
It is people like you who try to cause dissent, by cleverly picking holes in scholar's writings etc.
Not every Imam has detailed knowledge on every issue, so you can arrogantly think that we have been "caught out".

Almighty God is aware of who is rightly guided, and who is not.
You can do the same with the Bible too.
Those who have a strong faith and knowledge, will not be perturbed.

 

[KWED]

That is not the reason..
It is people like you who try to cause dissent, by cleverly picking holes in scholar's writings etc.

No idea what that is supposed to mean.
You claimed that the passage in question has a specific meaning. I have simply presented the opinions of several renowned scholars on the matter, that contradict your claim.

Not every Imam has detailed knowledge on every issue, so you can arrogantly think that we have been "caught out".

So when you say "ask any imam", you admit that they may not know what they are talking about.

Almighty God is aware of who is rightly guided, and who is not.

So why do you think that you are "rightly guided", while all those Islamic scholars, and Muhammad were not?

You can do the same with the Bible too.

Indeed. And I have done.

Those who have a strong faith and knowledge, will not be perturbed.

Are you claiming that all those Islamic scholars did/do not have "strong faith and knowledge" but you do?

Once again, you are simply rejecting the scholarly consensus and the example of Muhammad in favour of your own personal opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Once again, you are simply rejecting the scholarly consensus and the example of Muhammad in favour of your own personal opinion.

I just spoke to a local Arab scholar.
He said that there was no actual minimum age in years mentioned in Qur'an, hadith, tafsir etc.
We are all agreed on that, I think.
..however, that does not mean that an Islamic council or govt. can not introduce one, if they feel it is appropriate.

Secondly, he agreed that many scholars are in agreement with Ibn Kathir, but that does not make his opinion automatically right.
He also pointed out the same as @RAYYAN , that what is appropriate in a community 1000 years ago, does not necessarily apply today.
That is because, contrary to popular belief, Islam promotes democratic council [ of Muslims ].

Further to that, he said that the actual verse [65:4], he would have to seek further council of those well-versed in classical Arabic, to make sure.

 

[RAYYAN]

You seem to misunderstand.
The term "woman" is vague. You need to specify what you mean by it. Presumably as a Muslim you accept the Islamic definition, which is that a young female becomes a woman on her first period (usually around 9-12 years).
You said that marriage and sex is acceptable once they are "women".
Therefore your position is that marriage and sex is acceptable with "women" as young as 9 years old.

I was not "putting words in your mouth". I was "explaining the implication of the word you used".

A woman in Islam is a female who;
- Reached the age of puberty
- She is considered to be a woman in her society

 

[KWED]

I just spoke to a local Arab scholar.
He said that there was no actual minimum age in years mentioned in Qur'an, hadith, tafsir etc.
We are all agreed on that, I think.
..however, that does not mean that an Islamic council or govt. can not introduce one, if they feel it is appropriate.

Secondly, he agreed that many scholars are in agreement with Ibn Kathir, but that does not make his opinion automatically right.
He also pointed out the same as @RAYYAN , that what is appropriate in a community 1000 years ago, does not necessarily apply today.
That is because, contrary to popular belief, Islam promotes democratic council [ of Muslims ].

Further to that, he said that the actual verse [65:4], he would have to seek further council of those well-versed in classical Arabic, to make sure.

So basically, what I've been saying all along.

Muslims can hold whatever personal opinion they like on the issue, but that doesn't affect what is in the Quran and sunnah - which clearly permit or condone, in principle, marriage to and sex with girls as young as 9, under certain circumstances.

What people did in 7th century Arabia may not be acceptable today in general terms, but Allah's permissions and commands, and Muhammad's example, are, and always will be (in an Islamic context).

 

[KWED]

A woman in Islam is a female who;
- Reached the age of puberty

Correct. This is determined by having her first period.

She is considered to be a woman in her society

This is a different concept to the one above and varies with the society. What UK law considers to be "adult" is not what Islam considers to be adult.
Obviously, Muslims living in the UK are obliged to acknowledge the UK law on the issue in practical terms, even though they may regard it as wrong in moral terms as it contradicts what Allah and Muhammad said on the issue.

 

[KWED]

I just spoke to a local Arab scholar.
He said that there was no actual minimum age in years mentioned in Qur'an, hadith, tafsir etc.
We are all agreed on that, I think.
..however, that does not mean that an Islamic council or govt. can not introduce one, if they feel it is appropriate.

Secondly, he agreed that many scholars are in agreement with Ibn Kathir, but that does not make his opinion automatically right.
He also pointed out the same as @RAYYAN , that what is appropriate in a community 1000 years ago, does not necessarily apply today.
That is because, contrary to popular belief, Islam promotes democratic council [ of Muslims ].

Further to that, he said that the actual verse [65:4], he would have to seek further council of those well-versed in classical Arabic, to make sure.

Perhaps you could ask him if he considers there to be a difference in what is "Islamically/morally" acceptable and what is required by the laws of men - or if Islamic morality changes to correspond to social morality?

 

[RAYYAN]

Can you name one of Allah's laws that has changed over the last 1400 years?

Slavery

This contradicts your previous claim that sharia can change...
"Islamic law can change"
"Thus, whereas sharia is considered immutable and infallible"

The quote clearly says "fiqh is considered fallible and changeable. Fiqh deals with the observance of rituals, morals and social legislation in Islam as well as political system"

Sorry, but I don't differentiate between victims on the basis of religion or anything else.
A Muslim suffering barbaric punishment is just as worthy of defence as a Christian or Sikh or atheist.

Then, where is free will here
If a Muslim accepts the ruling of Islam when he entered the religion, Who are you to say no to him!

Some societies impose specific numbers. Islam uses a variable - the first period. This could be anywhere between 7 and 15.

Wrong
Islam doesn't just use the first period as a baseline, it uses what I mention like property, acceptability of the society, and readiness and acceptability of the woman herself

I have never tried to dictate what the age of marriage should have been in 7th century Arabis. That is just your misunderstanding again.
In fact, I have said that it was morally acceptable at the time.

Fair enough

And I have already answered it, but I'll try again in a different way.
No I don't. He was perfectly entitled to live by the cultural and social norms of the place and time where he lived.
The issue is with claiming that he is a perfect example for all those who come after him, and Islam is the perfect system. Which means that people in Europe in 2022 should live by the socio-religious norms of 7th century Arabia.

It doesn't mean that. Mohammed PBUH married Aisha who was younger than him and married another who was 15 years older than him. first of all, who you marry is a choice, it is not a must. another thing is, you have to live by the rule of your society as long as it doesn't contradict with Islamic law (if the person is a Muslim)

But do you consider him to be the perfect role model and ultimate moral example for all mankind?

Yes, he is. And he didn't do anything wrong

So you just made up an age? (What is that age, BTW?)

It is my conclusion so, I didn't make up any age

In which case, you believe that whatever he did in 7th century Arabia is morally acceptable in 21st century Europe, in principle - even if it is against the law of the land.
(This is the key issue that you seem to be missing).

No, I don't think it is acceptable in 21st century because times changed, and people changed. That is of course if he really married a 9 years old woman. But, We should not see what he did wrong at that time.

Scholars cannot change Allah's divinely revealed, objective morality. No one can. That is a basic tenet of Islam.
"What Allah has made haram, no man can make halal"

I agree with you. however, I was not talking about halal and haram, I was talking about the way we do things

So you are saying that Muhammad was just a man of his time, not the perfect role model and moral example for all time.
So if Islam hadn't existed and a person was called by Allah to receive his revelation in 21st century Holland, Islam would have all the cultural hallmarks of 21st century Dutch life. Adultery and homosexuality would be acceptable, as would drinking, prostitution and recreational drug use. And all the metaphors would refer to canals, windmills, bicycles, tulips, etc rather than camels and date palms, etc.

Oh no.
Mohammed is a man, and he is the perfect role model
When Islam started adultery, drinking, and prostitution was widespread, but Islam eliminated all that. So if Mohammed came in 21st-century holland, it would be the same thing

But the same applies to everything in Islam. All we have are unverifiable accounts.
The accepted records by your own standard (sahih hadith from the Bukhari and Muslim collections) state her age unequivocally.

Again, that applies to everything in Islam. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.[/QUOTE]

Ok sure. and!

As far as I can see, until a girl is a woman (first period), her father makes all her decisions for her.

Then when she married, that means she got at least her first period, which means she makes her own decision

So a father betrothing his young daughter to their tribal leader in 7th century Arabia makes no sense, but the moon splitting in two, a flood deep enough to cover mountains, a wall of iron and brass between two mountain peaks containing a race of mythical beasts that has remained hidden from humanity for thousands of years, all make perfect sense to you?

Yes, you are comparing humanly acts vs God's miracles
I thought you teach people how analogies work LOL

 

[RAYYAN]

This is a different concept to the one above and varies with the society. What UK law considers to be "adult" is not what Islam considers to be adult.
Obviously, Muslims living in the UK are obliged to acknowledge the UK law on the issue in practical terms, even though they may regard it as wrong in moral terms as it contradicts what Allah and Muhammad said on the issue.

I am a Muslim living in Canada, obviously, I know a lot of Muslims living in Canada.
We don't see the age of marriage inforced by the Canadian Government as morally wrong
So, what you are saying is a complete non sense

Where you got that from!

 

[KWED]

Slavery

Wrong. Slavery is still allowed in the Quran and sunnah. It is man who has created laws outlawing slavery, not god.

The quote clearly says "fiqh is considered fallible and changeable. Fiqh deals with the observance of rituals, morals and social legislation in Islam as well as political system"

So not Allah's laws as prescribed in the Quran. Those cannot change.

Then, where is free will here
If a Muslim accepts the ruling of Islam when he entered the religion, Who are you to say no to him!

Irrelevant. Is someone suffers abuse, I don't care what religion they are, I will protest it.

Wrong
Islam doesn't just use the first period as a baseline, it uses what I mention like property, acceptability of the society, and readiness and acceptability of the woman herself

Having the first sign of puberty is the baseline condition for adulthood. Property has nothing to do with it.
The morals of modern, liberal society also are irrelevant to Islam.

It doesn't mean that. Mohammed PBUH married Aisha who was younger than him and married another who was 15 years older than him. first of all, who you marry is a choice, it is not a must. another thing is, you have to live by the rule of your society as long as it doesn't contradict with Islamic law (if the person is a Muslim)

Dear gods! Why are you struggling to grasp this concept?

Muhammad is the perfect moral example for all mankind (that includes 21st century Europe, not just 7th century Arabia).
Therefore, whatever Muhammad did in 7th century Arabia is morally acceptable in 21st century Europe.
Really don't know that I can explain it any more simply.

It is my conclusion so, I didn't make up any age

How did you come to that conclusion?
And you still haven't said what age you think she was.

No, I don't think it is acceptable in 21st century because times changed, and people changed.

So you don't believe he is the perfect moral example for all mankind then?

I agree with you. however, I was not talking about halal and haram, I was talking about the way we do things

So you admit that if Allah decreed something morally acceptable in Muhammad's time, it is still morally acceptable today. Like marrying a 9 year old, slavery, torturing people to death, and using female captives for sex.

Oh no.
Mohammed is a man, and he is the perfect role model
When Islam started adultery, drinking, and prostitution was widespread, but Islam eliminated all that. So if Mohammed came in 21st-century holland, it would be the same thing

you keep contradicting yourself.

Then when she married, that means she got at least her first period, which means she makes her own decision

The hadith suggest that she was married before then and Muhammad waited until her first period to have sex with her, as it is unlikely she had it when she was six, but at none is possible.

Yes, you are comparing humanly acts vs God's miracles
I thought you teach people how analogies work LOL

I was showing that your standard for what "makes sense" is unreliable.

 

[KWED]

I am a Muslim living in Canada, obviously, I know a lot of Muslims living in Canada.
We don't see the age of marriage inforced by the Canadian Government as morally wrong
So, what you are saying is a complete non sense

Where you got that from!

So you disagree with Islam's standard of female adulthood as reaching their first period ?