Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[RAYYAN]

Wrong. Slavery is still allowed in the Quran and sunnah. It is man who has created laws outlawing slavery, not god.

So not Allah's laws as prescribed in the Quran. Those cannot change.

So, you want me to come up with a ruling in the Quran, then show you that ruling was change in the Quran itself?

Irrelevant. Is someone suffers abuse, I don't care what religion they are, I will protest it.

Protest all you want. It is irrelevant to the ruling

Having the first sign of puberty is the baseline condition for adulthood. Property has nothing to do with it.
The morals of modern, liberal society also are irrelevant to Islam.

I mean puberty, not property

Dear gods! Why are you struggling to grasp this concept?

Muhammad is the perfect moral example for all mankind (that includes 21st century Europe, not just 7th century Arabia).
Therefore, whatever Muhammad did in 7th century Arabia is morally acceptable in 21st century Europe.
Really don't know that I can explain it any more simply.

It is YOU who can't understand the point
Whatever he did, was morally acceptable, it doesn't mean 21st century people follow him and do the same.

How did you come to that conclusion?
And you still haven't said what age you think she was.

Well, the long discussion we had and all my explanation, that is the base of my conclution.
I don't know what was the age, could be 9 could be 20
The point is, it was fine back then, but it doesn't mean it will be fine if she was 9 today because time changes, people change, and maturity levels changed

So you don't believe he is the perfect moral example for all mankind then?

I am tired now.
If you can't get it, it doesn't change anything

So you admit that if Allah decreed something morally acceptable in Muhammad's time, it is still morally acceptable today. Like marrying a 9 year old, slavery, torturing people to death, and using female captives for sex.

Answered above

you keep contradicting yourself.

How?

The hadith suggest that she was married before then and Muhammad waited until her first period to have sex with her, as it is unlikely she had it when she was six, but at none is possible.

Arranged marriage was common back then even at the time baby girls are born, But, when it comes to the actual marriage when the girl becomes a woman, she is asked her opinion

I was showing that your standard for what "makes sense" is unreliable.

No, you were not showing me anything. This is a cover-up of your fallen analogy

 

[RAYYAN]

So you disagree with Islam's standard of female adulthood as reaching their first period ?

You are asking to answer a wrong and twisted question
Islam's standard is
- Puberty
- Known in society to be a woman capable of marriage
- Acceptance of the society

 

[KWED]

So, you want me to come up with a ruling in the Quran, then show you that ruling was change in the Quran itself?

If you like, but that would just show that the Quran contradicts itself.
My point is that what Allah made halal (like slavery, execution by torture, using female captives for sex), no man can make haram.
The civilised world may have outlawed those things, but they are still considered morally acceptable in Islam.

Protest all you want. It is irrelevant to the ruling

Exactly. Islam imposes barbaric punishments that the civilised world has outlawed. Anyone suffering those punishments should be defended.

I mean puberty, not property

So you accept that the onset of puberty is the baseline by which Islam determines adulthood.

It is YOU who can't understand the point
Whatever he did, was morally acceptable, it doesn't mean 21st century people follow him and do the same.

If morality is objective and divinely revealed (as Islam claims) then if whatever Muhammad did in the 7th century is objectively moral, then it is still objectively moral.
Obviously, Muslims do not have to follow everything he did (they would be arrested if they did!), but you cannot claim that it is morally unacceptable.
Muhammad married and had sex with a child. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.
Muhammad tortured people to death. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.
Muhammad owned and traded slaves. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.

A pretty simply concept.

Well, the long discussion we had and all my explanation, that is the base of my conclution.
I don't know what was the age, could be 9 could be 20

On what do you base the claim that she could have been 20?

The point is, it was fine back then, but it doesn't mean it will be fine if she was 9 today because time changes, people change,

. It is fine today if Muhammad is the perfect moral example for all mankind.
It is not fine today if he was just a man of his time and place.
You claim he is the perfect moral example foe all mankind.

and maturity levels changed

The available evidence shows that girls generally reach puberty younger today than they did non the ancient world.

If you can't get it, it doesn't change anything

I get it just fine. It is you who is struggling to grasp the concept. You are trying to claim that a perfect, timeless moral example is not a perfect moral example for today because what he did is morally unacceptable today. Which would mean that cannot be a perfect, timeless moral example. See?

Answered above

The problem is that you have essentially answered it with both "yes" and "no".

Arranged marriage was common back then even at the time baby girls are born, But, when it comes to the actual marriage when the girl becomes a woman, she is asked her opinion

Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was arranged. That is not in dispute.
Even if she was asked her opinion (which is unlikely), given the circumstances, she would almost certainly have consented. But of course, the consent of a child is not valid by modern legal standards - but it is by islamic standards.

 

[KWED]

You are asking to answer a wrong and twisted question

How?

Islam's standard is
- Puberty

Correct.

- Known in society to be a woman capable of marriage

You just made that up.

- Acceptance of the society

That is society's position, not Islam's.
Islam does not change to accommodate society's changing morals because morality is objective and absolute and from god.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I get it just fine. It is you who is struggling to grasp the concept. You are trying to claim that a perfect, timeless moral example is not a perfect moral example for today because what he did is morally unacceptable today. Which would mean that cannot be a perfect, timeless moral example..

I don't think that you do "get it".
Why is it that you think that girls must go to school and learn maths and science, and have a career, and earn the same as a man, and, and..

Was that applicable 1500 years ago to a girl living in a small oasis? No !

 

[RAYYAN]

How?

Because I told you the Islamic standard contains 3 things
However, you just took one of them to get a yes or no answer
It is sneaky

Correct.

not correct. Again, taking only part of what I said. What I said was;
- Puberty
- Known in society to be a woman capable of marriage
- Acceptance of the society

You just made that up.

So, do you think people get married without society accepting it?
When the prophet married Aisha, do you think society disagreed?
Or do you think you can provide evidence that society 1400 years ago didn't agree to any marriage because of age?

That is society's position, not Islam's.
Islam does not change to accommodate society's changing morals because morality is objective and absolute and from god.

If something happened in society, and Islam didn't contradict it, it becomes as good as approving it

 

[RAYYAN]

If you like, but that would just show that the Quran contradicts itself.
My point is that what Allah made halal (like slavery, execution by torture, using female captives for sex), no man can make haram.
The civilised world may have outlawed those things, but they are still considered morally acceptable in Islam.

Ok, then why did you ask for evidence from Quran if you know there is no other Quran?
However, We are not talking about Halal and Haram here when it comes to marriage, We are talking about another ruling called Jaez. Google that

Exactly. Islam imposes barbaric punishments that the civilised world has outlawed. Anyone suffering those punishments should be defended.

Sure. Do that all you want

So you accept that the onset of puberty is the baseline by which Islam determines adulthood.

AGAIN, I mentioned 3 things on how Islam considers a woman a woman
Do you want me to repeat it?

If morality is objective and divinely revealed (as Islam claims) then if whatever Muhammad did in the 7th century is objectively moral, then it is still objectively moral.
Obviously, Muslims do not have to follow everything he did (they would be arrested if they did!), but you cannot claim that it is morally unacceptable.
Muhammad married and had sex with a child. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.
Muhammad tortured people to death. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.
Muhammad owned and traded slaves. Therefore it was morally acceptable then and morally acceptable now.

A pretty simply concept.

I really have no additional thing to say here. I explained many times that Mohammed doesn't have to abide by 2022 society rules to become a role model.

On what do you base the claim that she could have been 20?

She could be 9, 12, 15, ....20 I have no evidence it is just my guess.
Don't you know how guess work works?

. It is fine today if Muhammad is the perfect moral example for all mankind.
It is not fine today if he was just a man of his time and place.
You claim he is the perfect moral example foe all mankind.

Again, no additional point here. You can't get it, it is fine

The available evidence shows that girls generally reach puberty younger today than they did non the ancient world.

Again, I mentioned 3 things and you hang on one of them.
Are you doing this intentionally, is it me who didn't write it well, is it my lack of the language, or is it you who can't get it? because I know you don't have reading disability

I get it just fine. It is you who is struggling to grasp the concept. You are trying to claim that a perfect, timeless moral example is not a perfect moral example for today because what he did is morally unacceptable today. Which would mean that cannot be a perfect, timeless moral example. See?

Oh, boy..... OK?

The problem is that you have essentially answered it with both "yes" and "no".

Really. What was the question, and what was my answer?

Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was arranged. That is not in dispute.
Even if she was asked her opinion (which is unlikely), given the circumstances, she would almost certainly have consented. But of course, the consent of a child is not valid by modern legal standards - but it is by Islamic standards.

Well, that is in your view
But, the reality is, she consented when she was a woman who can make her decision. Society was ok with that, she was ok, and the whole world was ok at that time.
If this is brought up in the 21st century, it doesn't matter to them.

Basically what you are saying is, the whole world was wrong 1400 years ago, and you have the right to tell them what is right and what is wrong

 

[muhammad_isa]

em.
Basically what you are saying is, the whole world was wrong 1400 years ago, and you have the right to tell them what is right and what is wrong

Yes, he does think that the whole world was wrong 1400 years ago.

He also does not like Islamic sharia.
A lot of people in the world don't.
The freedom of the west seems good, when you have what you want.
Alas, it is short-sighted. It can't last.
You can't beat Allah SWT natural laws.
What goes up, must come down.

dajal is gaining power. The majority are seduced. The world is on a precipice. Civilisation is crumbling.

 

[Sheldon]

they consider that it is not lawful to consummate a marriage with immature girls

Unlike Muhammed then.

 

[Raymann]

I just spoke to a local Arab scholar.
He said that there was no actual minimum age in years mentioned in Qur'an, hadith, tafsir etc.
We are all agreed on that, I think.
..however, that does not mean that an Islamic council or govt. can not introduce one, if they feel it is appropriate.

Wow, this is very revealing. So you rejected most of the world's best Islamic Scholars and all of a sudden a local Arab scholar changed your mind?
When you said: "we are all agreed on that, I think".
I take it that you include yourself in accepting that fact.
So age is not a factor, and menstruation (puberty) is not a factor, so that makes me wonder again:
How can a God be behind all this nonsense?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So age is not a factor..

I said "age in years"

 

[Raymann]

I said "age in years"

Yes, that's what I meant. To make it clear the scholar told you that "age in years" is not an impediment for a girl to get married according to all Islamic scriptures.
We also know that menstruation (puberty) is not an impediment either according to all Islamic scriptures.
And even if some Muslims agree that consummation must be done after puberty that is another thing that the Islamic scriptures forgot to address.
So what we call pedophilia in the west is not a crime according to Islamic scriptures.
I repeat "according to "Islamic scriptures" and not according to some Muslims who have adjusted to modern-day morals.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So what we call pedophilia in the west is not a crime according to Islamic scriptures.
I repeat "according to "Islamic scriptures" and not according to some Muslims who have adjusted to modern-day morals.

It is a crime to have illicit relations..
Is that against "modern-day morals" ? No.

Does the Qur'an include every single law that Muslims should implement? No.

Is adultery a more important law than "the age of consent?
Yes, but the west has lost its way.

 

[Raymann]

It is a crime to have illicit relations..
Is that against "modern-day morals" ? No.

Exactly my point. Marrying a 7-year-old prepubescent girl and consummating the marriage right away IS NOT ILLICIT under any Islamic scriptures and laws.

Does the Qur'an include every single law that Muslims should implement? No

No, it doesn't, that's why I was careful enough to say ALL ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES.
Let me ask you something:
Do you know of any case ever in the history of Islam of a man being accused of illegally having sex with his wife for the reason she was prepubescent or not mature enough????
I guess not. There is no Islamic law against it, is it?

Is adultery a more important law than "the age of consent?
Yes, but the west has lost its way.

Adultery is not illegal in the west, pedophilia on the other hand is illegal.
Under Islam, two consenting adults having sex outside of marriage could end up with death by stoning but the raping of a 7-year-old is just fine.
Hey, how can you disagree, it's Allah's law, isn't it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Exactly my point.

No, it is my point.
Adultery is not illegal in modern secular society.It therefore needs alternative laws to say who can do what.

 

[Raymann]

Adultery is not illegal in modern secular society.It therefore needs alternative laws to say who can do what.

No, there is no need for alternative laws. Adults in modern and free societies are entitled to have sex with whom they wish to. There are laws that allow for divorce.
But adultery is not the main point of discussion here even if you conveniently are trying to sidestep from answering uneasy questions.
Do you mind answering the questions asked?

Do you know of any case ever in the history of Islam of a man being accused of illegally having sex with his wife for the reason she was prepubescent or not mature enough????

Marrying a 7-year-old prepubescent girl and consummating the marriage right away IS NOT ILLICIT under any Islamic scriptures and laws.

Do you agree or disagree with those?

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, there is no need for alternative laws. Adults in modern and free societies are entitled to have sex with whom they wish to..

What .. even 7 year old girls?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What .. even 7 year old girls?

No, adults are from the age of generally 15/16 to 18 in Western societies.

 

[Raymann]

What .. even 7 year old girls?

Wow, I can see a glimpse of a guilty mind there.
Are you saying it would be wrong to have sex with a 7-year-old?
As a Muslim, I don't think you're in the position to judge.
But anyway the previous poster already answered your question, sex between consenting ADULTS is legal.
What a concept!
Still waiting for the answers to the questions you're having so much trouble trying to find the right words.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But anyway the previous poster already answered your question, sex between consenting ADULTS is legal.

I live in the UK, and last time I looked, it is.
..and we need law to inform us what an adult is.
..and it is convenient to state an age in years.

You can inform me about laws in other countries, but I don't live there, so it's not my business.