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Is using the word "IF" legitimate in front of "God's" question ?

VoidoftheSun

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
Israel Khan said:
A believer speaking to an atheist.

Atheist: There is no God that is why there is so much suffering in the world.

Believer: If God existed, do you think that he would allow suffering like this? Do you think it might be part of his plan.
Click to expand...

But the problem is the misattribution of things that people ourselves alone do, projecting it onto the Absolute.
At the same time though, I would have no problem projecting evil onto God, with the clause that all good is also projected onto God.

The problem though that you speak of has it's roots in Sethianism, possibly hinted at with Marcionism.
Greek and Indian philosophers before that period didn't see things the same way.

Anyway as I mentioned Sethianism, it comes back to the same idea with Satan. In Sethianism, there is the concept of the Demiurge (the creator of the world) who is perceived as evil.
It does align somewhat with Paul's concept of a "God of this world", being distinct from the Father and being a synonym for "Satan".

Basically for a TLDR shorthand of what I'm saying, is that Atheists are subscribing to the same bull**** dualism that Christians usually subscribe to, which is a faulty premise.

As the Qur'an already argues, if there are opposing forces then there must be a synthesis of the two because metaphysical politics is categorically an absurdity, in the Qur'an's rather sarcastic and polemical yet philosophical words regarding such a postulate;
"Had there been other deities in the heavens and the earth besides The God, both the heavens and the earth would have been destroyed." (Surah 21:22)

In many Neoplatonic, Hermetic and Gnostic systems we usually deal with emanations from a single transcendent unknown divine source, which is One (yes in the Tawhid sense and explicitly non-anthropomorphic).

I say that there are only two answers: either both good and evil are attributed to God (not on an individual subjective level though, which would be also absurd) or neither are and a more sane answer is given.
As far as Quranic argument is concerned, God created good and evil which are systems of moral-ethical judgement and socio-cultural arrangement towards a greater aim (being the hereafter).

"Every soul shall taste death, and We will test you with good and evil by way of test, and to Us you will be brought back."
(Surah 21:35)

They are non-existing outside of this material world (Dunya) because their purpose only entails such arrangement and order spoken of. Law in other words.

Similarly, many other traditions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) will say similar things on different levels with different terminology but in principle the same refusal to deify good/evil and suffering/pleasure as ontological absolutes.

As one of my favorite verses in the Tanakh says:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7)
 
Samael_Khan

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
VoidoftheSun said:
But the problem is the misattribution of things that people ourselves alone do, projecting it onto the Absolute.
At the same time though, I would have no problem projecting evil onto God, with the clause that all good is also projected onto God.

The problem though that you speak of has it's roots in Sethianism, possibly hinted at with Marcionism.
Greek and Indian philosophers before that period didn't see things the same way.

Anyway as I mentioned Sethianism, it comes back to the same idea with Satan. In Sethianism, there is the concept of the Demiurge (the creator of the world) who is perceived as evil.
It does align somewhat with Paul's concept of a "God of this world", being distinct from the Father and being a synonym for "Satan".

Basically for a TLDR shorthand of what I'm saying, is that Atheists are subscribing to the same bull**** dualism that Christians usually subscribe to, which is a faulty premise.

As the Qur'an already argues, if there are opposing forces then there must be a synthesis of the two because metaphysical politics is categorically an absurdity, in the Qur'an's rather sarcastic and polemical yet philosophical words regarding such a postulate;
"Had there been other deities in the heavens and the earth besides The God, both the heavens and the earth would have been destroyed." (Surah 21:22)

In many Neoplatonic, Hermetic and Gnostic systems we usually deal with emanations from a single transcendent unknown divine source, which is One (yes in the Tawhid sense and explicitly non-anthropomorphic).

I say that there are only two answers: either both good and evil are attributed to God (not on an individual subjective level though, which would be also absurd) or neither are and a more sane answer is given.
As far as Quranic argument is concerned, God created good and evil which are systems of moral-ethical judgement and socio-cultural arrangement towards a greater aim (being the hereafter).

"Every soul shall taste death, and We will test you with good and evil by way of test, and to Us you will be brought back."
(Surah 21:35)

They are non-existing outside of this material world (Dunya) because their purpose only entails such arrangement and order spoken of. Law in other words.

Similarly, many other traditions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) will say similar things on different levels with different terminology but in principle the same refusal to deify good/evil and suffering/pleasure as ontological absolutes.

As one of my favorite verses in the Tanakh says:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7)
Click to expand...

....

My post that you are quoting is about how would a believer use the phrase "if god existed", as the OP was saying that if one uses that phrase then they aren't actually a believer.

So the actual dialogue content of my post wasn't reflecting my own thoughts on the argument about suffering, as it was just a random example used to explain my point.

My response to your above argument though would be that I do not know if god and evil is just an opinion or whether it is actually something that was created. My opinion at the moment is that good and evil are merely opinions. If god exists, then he as the creator has the right to declare what his creation should and shouldn't do, so good and evil for us is absolute as it is based on his opinion.
 
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