Is Weed Good for the Soul?

[Penumbra]

For me personally it's that it's like a substitute, or if it works at best, it could, and often would, be used as a crutch, and as a "lazy man's way" into experiencing spiritual bliss, etc. Especially since there are other ways to achieve the same (and, from many mystic's words, much more intense) spiritual experience without the use of such things, it makes it come across as, well, redundant; almost crass and lazy. At least, to me as an outsider to the whole thing, anyway.

Use of substances has been a pretty common and geographically broad aspect of spiritual practice as far back as prehistoric times, potentially. Many forms of spiritual practice involved substances, some of which are illegal today in some areas.

I'm not particularly convinced that there are other ways to achieve similar "spiritual bliss" as it's called here, for all people. For some people, they can achieve reported bliss without external substances affecting the brain. But considering how biologically diverse people tend to be, I doubt it's true for everyone. Some people report various trips or experiences or blissful states without any practice to achieve them, while others practice rigorously for mild results, while others get no results and therefore go no further in practice. There is great variation, much like how some people can barely work out and yet be physically fit, while others can work out rather aggressively and still have trouble getting in shape.

Having observed descriptions from people's reported spiritual experiences, and having observed descriptions from people's reported drug use, as well as reading some of the science that has been done so far on observing people as they experience spiritual things from meditation or prayer and the way it affects the brain, it seems likely to me that it's all biological anyway. I view people's descriptions of blissful spiritual trips in the same way that I'd view any pleasure-seeking activity.

 

[1137]

That's not what I am saying. I recognize the extreme subjectivity. Even sobriety is a high mindset, we're just all used to it and call it normal. But changing your perception with drugs is much different than a mystical experience on drugs. Wheb you are in love or high and feeling happy, we are talking internal subjective perception. That's what is internal. But when we start talking with angels or God or whatever, and we see those as more than mind games, we've rejected reason.

 

[Orias]

You know Penumbra that reminds me of a report that says that the chemicals found in most drugs can actually be found in us, even if we have not actually used the referred substance.

This in itself, can be very revealing. Like what you mention, is the essential description of the Wu-Wei, or effortless effort.

 

[apophenia]

You know Penumbra that reminds me of a report that says that the chemicals found in most drugs can actually be found in us, even if we have not actually used the referred substance.

The remarks being made about drug-induced experiences being mere imagination etc are not very enlightened remarks IMO. And they are very culturally conditioned views, which dismiss the validity of many non-western cultures (which westerners always love to do it seems). It shows a considerable lack of education to assume that drug experiences are not a valid way to gain very real insight.

There are many references to psychoactives in the traditions of India and Tibet, and for that matter proto-christianity. And South America, Africa, Mongolia - so many cultures have traditionally incorporated sacramental substances for thousands of years.

I find it almost laughable (almost ...it's actually tragic) that so many posters here are drawing on the results of that sacramental use of entheogens without even realising it. Worse ! They actually think that these experiences are a cheap and nasty copy of 'genuine mystical experience', when the experiences they are referring to were originally precipitated in that way ! Ironic indeed.

Like any drug, weed mimics naturally occuring neurochemicals. The mystical experiences which are often the result of psychedelics are basically the same as "the real thing", because the 'natural' mystical experience involves the same kinds of changes in the brain.

I know this without a doubt, because in my teenage years before I ever ingested any substances, I pursued various forms of trance-induction, self-hypnosis and meditation. I routinely experienced altered states. It was not uncommon for me to witness the vegetation around me growing and morphing in delightful ways, or patterns of lines and circles in the sky, my face in a mirror undergoing transformations, feelings of oceanic bliss, and a variety of other kinds of experiences much the same as those induced by drugs including weed.

Read Patanjali. Read the Rig Veda. Read The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross by John Allegro. Read Shamans and Hallucinogens by Michael Harner. Find out about the ritual use of Iboga in Africa. Get a real education, and cease this cultural imperialism and Calvinistic mindset ! It makes my skin crawl ! It is not only presumptuous and judgemental to dismiss the validity of drug use, it demonstrates a lamentable ignorance about the history of so many of the religions and mystical practices talked about in these forums, and a cultural bias which effectively dismisses the validity of any approach to 'spirituality' which is not the tedious mind-numbing intellectual nit-picking which you can engage in here to your heart's discontent !

 

[1137]

I am not rejecting anything apophenia said. The first problem is "genuine mystical experience". Drug induced MEs are just as genuine, as they are the exact same thing. Very true that they can give you deep insights. As said, we live internally and drugs change our internal perceptions. Nothing wrong with that, until we start pointing our experiences elsewhere. So, when we think we talk to some being, if we fail to realize that it is in our head and nothing external, it's useless. My friend who saw a goblin, if he realizes that was in his mind perhaps he can gain something from even such a crazy trip. If he starts believing goblins exist.....

 

[1137]

However, simply thinking the goblin was nothing may be just as bad. There's a reason psychadelics can cause mental breaks, the fact that he saw a goblin in that specific place means something, whatever that may be.

 

[apophenia]

Let's get this very clear. Most people don't see goblins. You are using a rare and peculiar event to characterise all of psychedelia. And even then, the experience of a 'hallucination' is often an object lesson in the subjectivity of perception which is a valuable lesson. I know of various people (including myself) who have experienced the odd rare hallucination, and that is generally how it is handled.

And anyway, what about the self-induced , and much more persistent, belief in Flying Spaghetti Monsters, angels, prophets, demons and divine artwork inside eggplants ?

Is that evidence that not taking drugs causes psychosis ?

It may also be instructive to look at the history of western art and music. And by art I mean the arts. If we could somehow excise all the music, literature, film-making and painting which has been influenced by the use of drugs, a huge amount of western culture would disappear. Including for example jazz, rock and roll, hip-hop, techno - and perhaps someone might like to compile a list of all the famous writers who engaged in the use of a neurochemical muse. Some very famous names passed through Timothy Leary's Millbrook Institute ( Stanley Kubrick and Francis Ford Copplola come to mind. In fact modern western art and culture in general comes to mind !
Then there's psychology. Freud's work would probably never have developed without his use of cocaine (for himself and his clients).
And computing. I was there when 'hackers' were first exploring their IMSAI 8080s and Rockwell AIM65s and so forth before there were Apples and PCs, and I can assure you, there was a very general trend of expanding the mental plane using weed and other things.

 

[1137]

Plenty of people have psychotic breaks without taking drugs... Drugs simply are another state of mind like sobriety, just not what the majority naturally experience without taking something. As for the goblin, that's exactly why I mention it. We cannot ignore things that happen less often to make the drug seem more useful, we aren't the pharmaceutical companies. You seem to think I'm talking down on drug use when I am neither condoning or condemning, it's a completely individual choice. Notice how music, psychology, movies, etc all show someone's internal views expressed outwards.

Externally, how do we know who is right; the Christian who saw Christ while high, the Taoist who felt the Tao, the Jediist who was visited by master yoda's spirit... Which is valid and which is not?

 

[apophenia]

But most importantly, sacramental substances help to dislodge the recalcitrant ego from its foxhole of manufactured belief.

Have a good long look at the encyclopedic amounts of mental fabrication evidenced on these forums.

I see evidence that the 'spiritual path' is more like a shopping mall of relics remnants and poor copies of 'the real thing'.

I see evidence that people are just weighing up the pros and cons of the various pre-packaged imitations of realisation. It is all intellectual concoction and affectation.

None of it would last 5 minutes in the dazzling light of gnosis !

 

[apophenia]

Externally, how do we know who is right; the Christian who saw Christ while high, the Taoist who felt the Tao, the Jediist who was visited by master yoda's spirit... Which is valid and which is not?

**** 'who is right'.

That isn't a question about the nature of one's mind. That is a question about which kind of somnambulance is chosen.

 

[1137]

I agree. Well said.

 

[apophenia]

Cool. And we've got this far without the thread disappearing.

 

[1137]

**** 'who is right'.

That isn't a question about the nature of one's mind. That is a question about which kind of somnambulance is chosen.

The question was is marijuana good for the soul, it's kind of evolved to psychedelics in general. I guess the answer depends on what the soul is. Drugs can help or harm us internally but nothing more. We only have access to our minds. I'd say that when a person has a bad trip and it convinces him the book of revelations is true, that is not useful. Drugs are almost a tool, and you need to be able to handle tools before you use them.

 

[1137]

And Revelations is obviously the first recorded Christian bad trip.

 

[apophenia]

What makes you think it was bad ? The notion of universal destruction is generally fears of death or transformation being projected. Sometimes the most 'frightening' experiences are crucial.

 

[Father Heathen]

Anything enjoyed responsibly and in moderation can be "good for the soul". Don't see how a little weed would be any different than a bottle of beer, a glass of wine or even a cup of tea or coffee.

 

[1137]

What makes you think it was bad ? The notion of universal destruction is generally fears of death or transformation being projected. Sometimes the most 'frightening' experiences are crucial.

Ah, very good point.

 

[apophenia]

Yoga Sutras 4.1-4.3:
Means of Attaining Experience


4.1 The subtler attainments come with birth or are attained through herbs, mantra, austerities or concentration.
(janma osadhi mantra tapah samadhi jah siddhyayah)

 

[Orias]

The remarks being made about drug-induced experiences being mere imagination etc are not very enlightened remarks IMO. And they are very culturally conditioned views, which dismiss the validity of many non-western cultures (which westerners always love to do it seems). It shows a considerable lack of education to assume that drug experiences are not a valid way to gain very real insight.

I agree.

There are many references to psychoactives in the traditions of India and Tibet, and for that matter proto-christianity. And South America, Africa, Mongolia - so many cultures have traditionally incorporated sacramental substances for thousands of years.

This should be obvious material.

I find it almost laughable (almost ...it's actually tragic) that so many posters here are drawing on the results of that sacramental use of entheogens without even realising it. Worse ! They actually think that these experiences are a cheap and nasty copy of 'genuine mystical experience', when the experiences they are referring to were originally precipitated in that way ! Ironic indeed.

I wouldn't say that they are drawing sacrament to it, just that they haven't experienced it therefor their observations drawn from it lack any valuable insight pertaining to the questions I am asking.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Disclaimer: This thread in no way or means, advocates the use of illegal drugs or encourages one to use them. Personal examples should be kept to the self, as I don't want this thread to be in violation of the forum rules...work with me here.


Now, do you believe that marijuana is capable of enhancing one's spiritual relations, by any means, with one's God or spirit of choice? Do you also believe, that it is good for soothing the tender soul?

The similitude of a weed smokers thinking THC properties (Canabanoid receptors) is like the drunk who thinks being drunk makes people attractive. Mind altering drugs or drugs that inhibit areas of the brain will always have that specific association of spirituality.

So to answer the question: "Is weed good for the soul ?"

Perhaps I can answer a question with a question....

How does weed effect something that is incoporeal?

I personally believe its a misguided attempt to associate physical effects as spiritual.