Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

[leroy]

You don't know what a strawman is. Try again.

You are refuting an argument that I never made………….if you disagree feel free to quote my actual words.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13 41-42

Lots of love for the lost, eh? There's plenty more "love" where that came from.

It's a good thing that verse has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Done what? Why couldn’t Paul arrest people?……….elaborate your argument.


How do any of your comments show that Paul is not a reliable source?

He had no authority. Damascus was not part of Judea. It was a city that was friendly to all sorts of religions at the time. A party coming from another country to arrest their citizens would have been seen as kidnapping. How was he going to do it? Luckily for Paul the entire issue was moot due to his supposed roadside conversion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are refuting an argument that I never made………….if you disagree feel free to quote my actual words.

It appears that you might be correct. Your error is even bigger than I originally thought. You said this:

"The original argument was that Jesus and the disciples never existed because we dont have extra biblical sources form the 1st century.

I simply replied by saying that with those standards in mind, one should also reject the existence of Pilate."

We do have good extrabibilcal evidence for Pilate's existence. I thought that you knew that. You were just making an argument based upon an error. Your error supports the non-belief in a historical Jesus since we do have extrabiblical evidence for Pilate and the claimed evidence for Jesus is all very very weak.

 

[leroy]

He had no authority. Damascus was not part of Judea. It was a city that was friendly to all sorts of religions at the time. A party coming from another country to arrest their citizens would have been seen as kidnapping. How was he going to do it? Luckily for Paul the entire issue was moot due to his supposed roadside conversion.

Ok and do you have any source that indicates that Paul (under the orders of the high priest) had no authority against Jews in Damascus?

BTW are you aware of the fact that the passage is from Acts and not form Paul?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok and do you have any source that indicates that Paul (under the orders of the high priest) had no authority against Jews in Damascus?

BTW are you aware of the fact that the passage is from Acts and not form Paul?

Yes, I am aware of that. Are you claiming that Acts is not reliable?

As to supporting my claim you are aware, I hope, that Damascus was not part of Judea at that time. Do I need to support that? That alone should be enough to make you realize that the claimed reason was BS. I could dig up the evidence if needed, but some things should be rather obvious without the need to do so. This is not what I would call "evidence" but this video does explain what Damascus was like at that time. You don't have to watch the whole thing if you do not want to, but he does take apart the various Paul claims rather well. Start at roughly the six minute mark to hear his explanation:

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

It's a good thing that verse has nothing to do with Jesus.

I agree. But the Christians don't know about the Jesus seminar concluding 80% of the stuff attributed to Jesus he never said. That's where things go off the rails.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

'How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?' [Job 25:4-6]

People, even church people, can let us down. I believe the promises of God hold true, through life, and beyond death.

I ALWAYS say: if religion comforts a person, or benefits them in any way or makes their life better, then definitely believe in it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Well do you realize that your skepticism is far too extreme?..... historians don’t reject the historicity of Pilate

I don't reject it outright. I'm just saying if you asked me to prove his existence I couldn't do it. You might know of some Roman historians who mention him in that time other than Tacitus. If so, you know than I do about him.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Sin" is just another invention of the church to put guilt on us so we have to go to them to get Jesus.

True, the sin that Christians believe in is a scam so I just ignore it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wrong again.

Acts 3:15. Peter said, 'But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.'

I said “Jesus never said anything about being the prince of life.” I do not care what Paul said that Peter said about Jesus.

To be clear, I do not care what Paul says about Jesus because I believe Paul made Jesus into someone who He never was.

This is an important issue for Christians. Christians understand the Comforter to be the Holy Spirit [John 14:26], the Spirit of God in Christ. The Comforter cannot be Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the Christians have the wrong understanding of who the Comforter was so they have made a serious mistake, a mistake that could cost them more than they will ever know, until they die and it is too late.

As I said before, the Comforter is just a title for the man (Baha’u’llah) who brought the Holy Spirit.

Baha'u'llah was born on earth, in Tehran, in 1817. He died in Acre, Israel, in 1892.

The Holy Spirit is sent from heaven; the Holy Spirit has no beginning or end.

I never said that Baha’u’llah WAS the Holy Spirit; I said that Baha’u’llah BROUGHT the Holy Spirit from God to man. The problem Christians have is that they insist that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost, but that is not what it is.

That’s right; the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, which has no beginning and no end.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection. Some Answered Questions, p. 108

Pentecost [Acts 2] marks the sending of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, the body of Christ. This was the coming of the Comforter, promised by Jesus. If Baha'u'llah was the intended Comforter, then humanity would have had to wait 18 hundred years for the promise of Christ to be fulfilled. There would have been no Church for 1800 years!

Pentecost [Acts 2:1-4] marks the sending of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, the body of Christ. This was NOT the coming of the Comforter, promised by Jesus. Baha'u'llah was the intended Comforter [Acts 2:17-21] and humanity had to wait 18 hundred years for the promise of Christ to be fulfilled. Meanwhile, there was a Church because the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost and it remained ‘in the world.

The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

Luke 24:49. 'And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.'

Jesus spoke these words before he ascended to heaven. The Ascension took place ten days before Pentecost.

I THINK, TRAILBLAZER, THAT YOU HAVE USED UP ALL YOUR WRIGGLE ROOM!

As I said above there were TWO different events that involved the Holy Spirit.

1. Jesus spoke those words before he ascended to heaven, and then ten days later, on the day of Pentecost, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

2. In the last days, God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh, and it came by way of Baha’u’llah who brought the Holy Spirit from God to humanity. Jesus was a comforter who brought the Holy Spirit. Baha’u’llah was “another Comforter” because He brought the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[leroy]

Yes, I am aware of that. Are you claiming that Acts is not reliable?

But you said that you were going to show that Paul is not reliable, so which one is it? Are you changing your claim of “Paul is not reliable “ to “acts is not reliable”?

As to supporting my claim you are aware, I hope, that Damascus was not part of Judea at that time. Do I need to support that?

You have to support that high priests didn’t have any authority outside Judea. (not even in Jewish communities) , I honestly don’t know that’s why I am asking for a source

That alone should be enough to make you realize that the claimed reason was BS. I could dig up the evidence if needed, but some things should be rather obvious without the need to do so. This is not what I would call "evidence" but this video does explain what Damascus was like at that time

.
So what’s your main point? That the book of Acts had some historical mistakes?......... I am not sure if in this particular case a mistake was made, but so what? all ancient authors made mistakes……….a source doesn’t become unreliable just because it made a mistake otherwise we would have to drop all historical documents

You don't have to watch the whole thing if you do not want to, but he does take apart the various Paul claims rather well. Start at roughly the six minute mark to hear his explanation:

ok ill watch the video within a few days..................j
[

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. But the Christians don't know about the Jesus seminar concluding 80% of the stuff attributed to Jesus he never said. That's where things go off the rails.

The Christians might know about the seminar but that does not mean they agree with it.
If they agreed with it their entire edifice would come crashing down like a house of cards.

Then, with all these false beliefs out of the way, maybe humanity could build the New World Order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

 

[Subduction Zone]

But you said that you were going to show that Paul is not reliable, so which one is it? Are you changing your claim of “Paul is not reliable “ to “acts is not reliable”?

Dodge, you are trying to claim that the Bible is inconsistent and therefore unreliable. You lose either way when you do this.

You have to support that high priests didn’t have any authority outside Judea. (not even in Jewish communities) , I honestly don’t know that’s why I am asking for a source

I did. You ignored it.

.
So what’s your main point? That the book of Acts had some historical mistakes?......... I am not sure if in this particular case a mistake was made, but so what? all ancient authors made mistakes……….a source doesn’t become unreliable just because it made a mistake otherwise we would have to drop all historical documents

No, just that the Bible is not reliable, as you seem to have admitted yourself.

ok ill watch the video within a few days..................j

You should invest a few minutes today.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The Christians might know about the seminal but that does not mean they agree with it.
If they agreed with it their entire edifice would come crashing down like a house of cards.

Then, with all these false beliefs out of the way, maybe humanity could build the New World Order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

I'm all for that. Don't count on them giving up without a fight, though.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm all for that. Don't count on them giving up without a fight, though.

I don't care, in fact I live for the day when the fight begins, because as soon as Christians start openly attacking the Baha'i Faith, that is when it will come into the limelight and the false Christian beliefs will be exposed for all the world to see. Christianity is already dying a slow death but the pace will pick up when Christians start outwardly attacking the Baha'i Faith. Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, predicted that those attacks would occur in the future, and it makes sense that the attacks will begin when Christianity finally realizes they are losing their hold on the masses.

There is nothing I would enjoy more than to defend the Faith against its assailants, not even an around the world cruise.

Below is what Baha'u'llah wrote about those who attack the Cause of God, what our response should be and what our reward will be for defending the Cause; not that I would do it for that reward, but as the Bab wrote about rewards in heaven, "God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom." Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

“Warn, O Salmán, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men. Let them rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy. Those men, however, who, in this Day, have been led to assail, in their inflammatory writings, the tenets of the Cause of God, are to be treated differently. It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty. He that wisheth to promote the Cause of the one true God, let him promote it through his pen and tongue, rather than have recourse to sword or violence. We have, on a previous occasion, revealed this injunction, and We now confirm it, if ye be of them that comprehend. By the righteousness of Him Who, in this Day, crieth within the inmost heart of all created things: “God, there is none other God besides Me!” If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor. For whosoever standeth firm and steadfast in this holy, this glorious, and exalted Revelation, such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth. Of this God is Himself a witness.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 329-330

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Only God has rulership over earth. Jesus has no rulership over earth, as Jesus rules forever in heaven on a heavenly throne.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Isaiah 9:6-7does not refer to Jesus. These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9, because none of these things happened during the Dispensation of Jesus. What Isaiah 11:6-9 means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world” so there will be no 1,000 year kingdom of Christ on earth where peace will exist among the animals and people. The Kingdom of God on earth is the Kingdom that people will build by following the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Jesus is never coming back to this world because He has no more work to do here. Not only did Jesus say what is in the following verses, but there is not one single verse wherein Jesus promised to return to earth in the same body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

That might be another reason they did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, but it does not change the FACT that Jesus did not fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies.

It is a moot point whether Jesus had any control over the fulfillment of these prophecies; the point is that Jesus was never the one who was slated by God to fulfill these prophecies, and that is why He never did. Jesus’ mission ended when He died on the cross, he said, It is finished, but then decades later men wrote stories about Jesus coming back to life so they could believe that He would return in the same body. This emotional attachment to the same man Jesus in the same body with the same personality He had as depicted in the gospels is the primary reason that Christians have rejected Baha’u’llah out of hand, because He was a different person with new name, as was prophesied in the New Testament (Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12).

Christians cannot simply accept reality, that Jesus is not coming back to this world, but they will see Jesus and be with Him in heaven for eternity. The irony is that they will continue to wait for the same man Jesus forever and when He does not come during their lifetimes as has proven to be the case thus far, each generation that was waiting will die and realize they were wrong about Jesus returning to earth. Then when they die and meet Jesus in heaven, Jesus will ask them why they rejected Him when His Spirit returned as Baha’u’llah. What the repercussions of that will be only God knows.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I don't reject it outright. I'm just saying if you asked me to prove his existence I couldn't do it. You might know of some Roman historians who mention him in that time other than Tacitus. If so, you know than I do about him.

Proof of Pontius Pilate's governorship of Judea was found at Caesarea by Italian archaeologists in 1961. A stone with part of the Latin inscription 'Pontius Pilatus Praefectus' was uncovered and dated to the first century AD.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Proof of Pontius Pilate's governorship of Judea was found at Caesarea by Italian archaeologists in 1961. A stone with part of the Latin inscription 'Pontius Pilatus Praefectus' was uncovered and dated to the first century AD.

This is what I like to call the Spiderman fallacy. Comic books quite often have correct names of places or people. That does not make them reliable sources when it comes to the existence of Spiderman. The fact that Pilate existed is not evidence for the Jesus story.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Proof of Pontius Pilate's governorship of Judea was found at Caesarea by Italian archaeologists in 1961. A stone with part of the Latin inscription 'Pontius Pilatus Praefectus' was uncovered and dated to the first century AD.

If it was proved to be genuine then that's good enough for me. Pilate was a real person.