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Isaiah 24:21 ???
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
This is true, but this is not the same as the overcomers in the book of revelation
I understand spiritual death. You seem to be saying God has no control over the spiritually dead.
No, this is why we are here. This is why Jesus came to kill death with death. Did you read J Preston Ebys post on the sea?
No I did not. Is he not spiritually dead?
Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. Gods Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state.
"QUICK ."Quick means living and active LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.
Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast
I think you did not answer the question. Should I read the post because the poster is not dead like me? Has he been made alive so that I should listen to him?
I never said you were you were not made a live in Christ; that is between you in God; no one is forcing you to read a thing???
I do not know J Preston Eby and I do not know how to find the post.
Bummer.
I think it is fair to say dependence on human nature alone will never improve society. I don't think it is fair or true to say "human nature never improves". I am a better person for going to Christ. My nature is still human, isn't it?
Human nature and your Christ natures are two opposing NATURES
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
let me get this straight, because God is greater then us in wisdom and perspective, he can command us to do both good and bad. He can move us to break his laws then punish us for it because he is an eternal spirit and we are not.
But you, as a nimble and less wise or loving human would never do that to your own child.
What i dont understand is this.... you admit that you are not as good or wise or loving as God, none of us are and I agree.... however you would charge him with things that you yourself would never do.
There is no logic in that at all.
:no:
All i ask of you is to deeply consider the personality of God. Galatians 5 describes the spirit of God as this: Vs22*On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23*mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Would someone with such a spirit really lead another into wrongdoing of any kind? Galatians goes onto say that God is AGAINST the works of the flesh....and you've accused God of practising works of flesh by claiming that he leads people into wrongdoing and then punishes them for it.
Galatians 5:16*But I say, Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all. 17*For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that YOU would like to do YOU do not do. 18*Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law. 19*Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20*idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21*envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. 22*On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23*mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Would God really make people practice these fleshly works, then reject them from inheriting his kingdom? And if he did, wouldnt that make him responsible for these practices and therefore a practiser of them himself?
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But Pegg, the Spirit of Truth is a doctrine to you not an experiece? So who are you to judge?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. Yes:
Gen 22:1-2 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2 Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
Hos 1:2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea: "Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry And children of harlotry, For the land has committed great harlotry By departing from the LORD."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [yet he tells us to love even our enemies]
Hos 1:2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea: "Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry And children of harlotry, For the land has committed great harlotry By departing from the LORD."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [yet he tells us to love even our enemies]
Jehovah can do and command us to do whatever He pleases---good or evil.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Isa 45:7,11-13 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil/adversity: I the LORD do all these things.....
And how dare you question what He does:
11 This is what the LORD saysthe Holy One of Israel and your Creator: "Do you question what I do for My children? Do you give Me orders about the work of My hands? 12 I am the One who made the earth and created people to live on it. With My hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at My command. 13 I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill My righteous purpose, and I will guide his actions. He will restore My city and free My captive peoplewithout seeking a reward! I, the LORD of Heaven's Armies, have spoken!"
2. Because He commands us not to do so. Yet He Himself can do what He tells us to stay away from, if He so chooses.
3. Is there logic in God killing His enemies then command us not to do it and love them instead??? His ways and thoughts are beyond our human logic, Pegg.
4.
Isa 55:9-11 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
In other words, God says you don't have to understand because His logic is far above and beyond ours. Scripture confirms this as we read God doing things our logic tells us is wrong or unrighteous.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 44:7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them.
Isa 44:7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them.
Think about this for a moment. How can God declare the end from the beginning and direct the things that are coming, without any manipulation (for the good or evil) of free will?
Dan 4:35 All the people of the earth are nothing compared to Him. He does as He pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop Him or say to Him, 'What do you mean by doing these things?'
This was said by Nebuchadnezzar after God restored His sanity. God gave evil Nebuchadnezzar great wealth and power which we would consider "good". But God also took it away and made Him insane, which we would consider "evil". We see examples of God doing good and evil to the righteous as well. Did you notice it does not specify He does "only" good or "only" evil among the angels and the people of the earth? It just states, He will do whatever His sovereign will pleases. Other scriptures tell He does both good and evil.
5. Yet we find God commanding His servant Hosea to engage in (not practice-big difference) uncleanness. We even see God Himself engaging in hate (Rom 9:13) and murder. God can and does command and engage in actions He tells us not to practice.
6. The Greek term for practice [prasso] in Gal 5:21 is defined as something done habitually. As oppose to "peirasmos" which means to experiment or test. God does not want us to habitually [prasso] take part in these things for He knows it will eventually corrupt us to the point of no repentance. But He can make/command us to "peirasmos" [experiment] with these behaviors in order to accomplish a greater purpose in our lives and the lives of others, as evidenced by Hosea and Israel.
is calling antisocial evil? I think people like me do not appreciate that!
Taking a wife who is a harlot is EVIL? Who told you that?
Abraham heard from YHVH that he should offer up his son. You do not know what that was all about yet you are able to call it evil. You're not a judge are you? I'd stay out of trouble in You're town. Good boy!
Murder being the unlawful killing of another human being and YHVH being The Law (just one part of The Personality of Almighty God) who are you to say God murders?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Abraham was being tested as to his faith....God never intended to allow him to kill Isaac so this was not a command to murder his son. It was a test of faith.
And Hosiah was told to marry a prostitute.... its not against Gods law to marry a prostitute. Rahab was a prostitute and she became the wife of Boaz and the great grandmother of King David...and in turn, an ancestor of Jesus Christ.
the hebrew word means to 'love less'
It was said that Jacob loved Rachel but hated his wife Leah. 'Hate' in our language is not the same as what it means in the hebrew. It means to love less.
Yes he does, but nothing he does is ever 'morally' wrong. And what you are saying is that he causes us to do morally wrong things.
Jehovah is a God of justice....when he pronounces his judgement and brings execution, its because it is deserving and morally right for him to do so.
When someone from mankind commits a wrong act, it is 'morally' wrong and therefore it cannot possibly be God who is making the person commit the act.
James 1:13 for with evil things [form of ka·kos′] God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.
If the christians believed that God caused mankind to sin, then there is no way this verse would be in the Christian scriptures.
he tells us to do what is morally right because he himself is morally right.
But you are claiming that he is no better then us because he causes us to do morally wrong things.
1 Timothy 5:22 Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others; preserve yourself chaste
If God causes us to sin, he is a sharer in the sin according to this scripture.
Does God sin?
God brings justice upon the wicked. He has the right to do that because he is the one who sustains their life...we are not.
I would never question his right to take away a persons life... but i certainly wouldnt accuse God of murder. Nor would I accuse him of wrongdoing. In the past when he has permitted Isreal to kill their enemies, it was because his judgement had already been passed on the wicked people they were fighting. Therefore, Isreal simply acted as an executioner...not as the ones who decided on the judgement.
Ok, and this takes me back to the question i asked earlier... would you do this to your own child?
Your answer earlier was 'no'!
Yet you think God does this to his children.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Why place the focus on me? Lets not deflect attention away from what is really important---the text. The text states and implies the Israelites were innocent. So why did God kill innocent Israelites. Here it is again:
Psa 44:11 You have butchered us like sheep and scattered us among the nations.
Psa 44:12 You sold Your precious people for a pittance, making nothing on the sale.
Psa 44:13 You let our neighbors mock us. We are an object of scorn and derision to those around us.
Psa 44:14 You have made us the butt of their jokes; they shake their heads at us in scorn.
Psa 44:15 We can't escape the constant humiliation; shame is written across our faces.
Psa 44:16 All we hear are the taunts of our mockers. All we see are our vengeful enemies.
Psa 44:17 All this has happened though we have not forgotten You. We have not violated Your covenant.
Psa 44:18 Our hearts have not deserted You. We have not strayed from Your path.
Psa 44:19 Yet You have crushed us in the jackal's desert home. You have covered us with darkness and death.
Psa 44:20 If we had forgotten the name of our God or spread our hands in prayer to foreign gods,
Psa 44:21 God would surely have known it, for He knows the secrets of every heart.
Psa 44:22 But for Your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.
Psa 44:23 Wake up, O Lord! Why do You sleep? Get up! Do not reject us forever.
Psa 44:12 You sold Your precious people for a pittance, making nothing on the sale.
Psa 44:13 You let our neighbors mock us. We are an object of scorn and derision to those around us.
Psa 44:14 You have made us the butt of their jokes; they shake their heads at us in scorn.
Psa 44:15 We can't escape the constant humiliation; shame is written across our faces.
Psa 44:16 All we hear are the taunts of our mockers. All we see are our vengeful enemies.
Psa 44:17 All this has happened though we have not forgotten You. We have not violated Your covenant.
Psa 44:18 Our hearts have not deserted You. We have not strayed from Your path.
Psa 44:19 Yet You have crushed us in the jackal's desert home. You have covered us with darkness and death.
Psa 44:20 If we had forgotten the name of our God or spread our hands in prayer to foreign gods,
Psa 44:21 God would surely have known it, for He knows the secrets of every heart.
Psa 44:22 But for Your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.
Psa 44:23 Wake up, O Lord! Why do You sleep? Get up! Do not reject us forever.
That is my whole point. God can do what He tells us not to do. Read the thread.
is calling antisocial evil? I think people like me do not appreciate that!
So God commanding someone to kill is antisocial?
A promiscuous woman (often referred to as a harlot) was considered evil, unclean, and was to be put to death (Deu 22:21). So to answer your questions, yes. God asking His prophet to marry an evil woman that would corrupt him is evil (1 co 15:33).
You're right, I really dont know fully understand why God asked Him to do such a thing. But I do know from reading other scriptures, Abraham was not asked to perform a righteous act.
1Co_6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
Trying to get some on-the-job training. You should be a "good" girl and do the same
?????????? Seriously SW, and please don't take this the wrong way, I know I can speak for others on this forum in saying some of the stuff you come up with is difficult to follow and just plain bizarre
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. Is that in the scriptures or an assumption based on indoctrination?
2. So I guess God killing innocent Israelites in Ps 44 was also a test of faith?
3. It isn't????
1Co 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."
4. Where does it state "Rahab the harlot" , from the book of Joshua, became the wife of Boaz???
5.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated G3404
Luk_1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate G3404 us;
Luk_1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate G3404 us;
Do our enemies "love us less"??? The term can imply both--to love less and to detest. The question is which meaning did God imply? Let the scriptures interpret scripture:
Isa 34:5-6 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
Mal_1:4 Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.
Oba 1:3 The pride of your [Edom's] heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart, 'Who will bring me down to the ground?'
Mal_1:4 Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.
Oba 1:3 The pride of your [Edom's] heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart, 'Who will bring me down to the ground?'
And what is one of the seven things God hates---pride (Pro 6:16-17). I think we can conclude, without a shadow of a doubt, which definition of "hate" God implied in Rom 9:13.
6. If the scriptures, not I, testify He can make us do morally wrong things, then it is our understanding of God's sovereignty and morality that is flawed, right?
7. So this means it was morally right and just for Him to kill innocent Israelites in Psa 44, right?
8. You're right. It isn't God [directly] Himself. It is done indirectly through satan. In the end, God is ultimately responsible.
9. Hmmm....A coulda, shoulda, woulda statement? We know what that is called..
10. I've presented plenty of scriptures clearly stating He does not "always" tell us to do what "we" deem is morally right. This suggests that whatever "evil" He commands or makes us perform is morally right from His eternal perspective.
11. But the real question is: what about the righteous? Why did He kill innocent Israelites in Ps 44?
12. On second thought, I would. If I had God's eternal perspective, infinite wisdom and foreknowledge to see that this would not cause permanent damage and lead to a positive outcome.