Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[101G]

To my Hebrew and Jewish friends. instead of coming together, or joining, to make a ECHAD of God, consider this, "emanation". supportive scripture, John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

here, the term "proceeded" in Greek means,
G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v.
to issue.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1537 and G2064]
KJV: come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad
Root(s): G1537, G2064

ANOTHER WORD FOR "ISSUE" IS EMANATE, which means, (of something abstract but perceptible) issue or spread out from (a source):

God is a Spirit .... Abstract, (invisible). but as the definition states, perceptible, (visible). supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

verse 6 states "Who, being in the form of God". being is present tense, and form here is NATURE, which is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

so, the Lord Jesus is in the NATURE of God.... "Spirit", just as EMANATE, states, (of something abstract but perceptible), John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". and he is invisible, abstract, but as EMANATE, states, (of something abstract but perceptible). here is the revelation, the ROOT word of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n. which is (God's NATURE) is,

G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).

guess what is another word that is synonyms with PORTION, when used as a Noun, to describe a part of a WHOLE, as in a ECHAD? answer ...... "SHARE" ... one can find this information here, What is another word for portion? | Portion Synonyms - WordHippo Thesaurus

and also, G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros), means an amount allotted, a part of something, which also means "SHARE" as well as "ISSUE". and the term G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v. to issue, or as the scriptures states "COME FORTH". John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.".

so the proper designation of ECHAD in reference to Almighty God is not a United, or a UNITY, but a "emanation", ....... OF God as the ANOTHER of God in Flesh, Ordinal designations, just as H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') states in Genesis 1:1 LISTEN and LEARN.
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

NOTICE plural .... "OF".... "OF" ..... "OF" ..... H433/God, BINGO, there is the ECHAD. because,
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m. ,,,,,, IS GOD
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

so the ECHAD of God cannot be a "UNITED" ...; ONE, nor a "COMPOUND UNITY", of ONE. it can only be a "DIVERSITY" meaning an "OFFSPRING, of EQUAL ...... "SHARE".

101G.

 

[PruePhillip]

For me, it's a deal breaker. The point of verse 7 is that the suffering servant accepts the suffering. Yes! Jesus did that at the beginning, but didn't do that at the end. Maybe think if it this way? Let's say I sit down to a meal, and say grace thanking God. Then at the end of the meal, I say a 2nd grace thanking Artemis. What happened? I started out doing the right thing, but at the end ... I botched it.

Maybe you can answer this for me? Why is it important for Jesus to be the suffering servant? What is lost in the Jesus story if this prophecy is not him? There's still the miracles. There's still the exocisms. There's still speaking truth to power. There's still concentrating the commandments. There's still the sacrifice. There's still the ressurection. Etc... There's so much there, why go back into the Hebrew bible?

I did a quick search for the answer, this is what I found:

Is Isaiah 53 "The Suffering Servant" a Prophecy about Jesus?

Jesus made it obvious that he was the suffering servant. Even if people never read the New Testament, they can see from the example Jesus gave that no one matches the Suffering Servant quite as well as he does.

www.christianity.com

"This passage also leaves the Old Testament readers with no excuse."

So, it's not that Jesus ever claimed to be the suffering servant. This is someting that Christians use to show that Jews were/are wrong to reject Jesus. But, like I asked with Zecharia 12, if the story told by Christians is true, then the Jewish people were nothing more than pawns. If Jesus had been accepted, then none of the really important events in the Christian story would have occured. If the Jewish people had accepted him, there would not have been a crucifixion!

So this whole idea of prophecies being obviously fulfilled, makes no sense. The Gospel story, on its own makes sense. Can you address this issue? Wouldn't obvious prophecies pointing to Jesus defeat the entire purpose of Jesus' mission?

Yes Jesus did claim he was the suffering servant. He said all the prophets spoke of him. He said he came to give his life a ransom for many.
As was seen with Daniel, the Messiah would come while the temple stood, and Jacob said the Messiah's coming would be the end of the Jewish nation. So there's no chance the Jews were going to accept Jesus.

 

[101G]

To all my Jewish and Hebrew friends,

God is an ECHAD of HIMSELF in Ordinal Designations of First and Last. as First, title Father, it answers the Question why he, God in Genesis 1:26 said, US and OUR, a Plurality, but in Genesis 1:27 the very next verse, he and his, a singularity.

the ECHAD is Clear, at Genesis 1:26, the us and our was to Come. he had not yet diversified nor was in emanation, as said which was to come, so both Genesis 1:26 and 27 are correct in statement. and is understood in what was to come.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

Yes Jesus did claim he was the suffering servant. He said all the prophets spoke of him. He said he came to give his life a ransom for many.
As was seen with Daniel, the Messiah would come while the temple stood, and Jacob said the Messiah's coming would be the end of the Jewish nation. So there's no chance the Jews were going to accept Jesus.

25 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.

So, I ask again, why is there mourning for something which was necessary?

 

[PruePhillip]

25 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.

So, I ask again, why is there mourning for something which was necessary?

Zechariah 9 and 12 speak of the Jews mourning that their conquering Messiah is the same lowly man they pierced.
Doesn't say his followers mourn but those who rejected the Messiah in his suffering - they will not participate in his glory.

 

[dybmh]

Zechariah 9 and 12 speak of the Jews mourning that their conquering Messiah is the same lowly man they pierced.
Doesn't say his followers mourn but those who rejected the Messiah in his suffering -

I understand that, what I don't understand is:

If the conquering Messiah has arrived, then why mourn?
If the man they pierced says it was necessary.. you fools... then why mourn?

they will not participate in his glory.

The spirit of grace would forgive them. That is stated in Zech 12:10 in the translation you brought. Grace = forgiveness in spite of any past fault.

Why would we mourn? Unless this can be answered, the Christian interpretation has 3 major flaws.

 

[PruePhillip]

I understand that, what I don't understand is:

If the conquering Messiah has arrived, then why mourn?
If the man they pierced says it was necessary.. you fools... then why mourn?



The spirit of grace would forgive them. That is stated in Zech 12:10 in the translation you brought. Grace = forgiveness in spite of any past fault.

Why would we mourn? Unless this can be answered, the Christian interpretation has 3 major flaws.

Forget the Christian interpretation. The Tanakh is sufficient - the Jews will get their promised land. The Messiah will come to the Jews. The Messiah will be 'rejected' (Isaiah) and 'cut off' (Daniel) and the Jews will lose their promised land. The Messiah will return in glory and reign over the nations. The nations will mourn his coming because they have no part in his glory - this includes the nation that killed him.

It was necessary that the Messiah suffer and die, but woe to the people who did this.

I find Ezekiel 39 interesting - Gog and Magog. I hope I am not alive to see the invasion of the new Israel.

 

[dybmh]

Forget the Christian interpretation. The Tanakh is sufficient - the Jews will get their promised land. The Messiah will come to the Jews. The Messiah will be 'rejected' (Isaiah) and 'cut off' (Daniel) and the Jews will lose their promised land. The Messiah will return in glory and reign over the nations. The nations will mourn his coming because they have no part in his glory - this includes the nation that killed him.

It was necessary that the Messiah suffer and die, but woe to the people who did this.

I find Ezekiel 39 interesting - Gog and Magog. I hope I am not alive to see the invasion of the new Israel.

What about the spirit of grace???

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

Who is getting the grace? This is what I'm talking about. What's needed is to go through the verse and identify who is being spoken of in each instance. Here, I'm going to try to do this based on what you've been saying. When I'm done, I don't think it's going to make sense based on how it's written. Then, maybe quote the passage and correct me.

And I [God] will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They [the house of David and Jerusalem] will look on me [Jesus], the one they have pierced,
and they [the house of David and Jerusalem] will mourn for him [Jesus] as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

If i understand, the house of David and Jerusalem receives the spirit of grace. It's poured on them. It just happens. They have no choice. And also the house of David and Jerusalem mourns. They receive grace and then they mourn? And how is it that they receive grace and they do not take part in the glory? And what about Jesus saying, "fools, this was necessary"?

There of course is an option, that the "they" is not the house of David and Jerusalem, and is instead some other unnamed party. But I don't think that's what you're saying. Or, somehow, the spirit of grace isnt really a spirit of grace. I doubt you're saying that either.

 

[101G]

If the conquering Messiah has arrived, then why mourn?
If the man they pierced says it was necessary.. you fools... then why mourn?

because of the people IGNORANCE, in his SALVATION, Listen and Learn. Luke 23:26 "And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus." Luke 23:27 "And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him." Luke 23:28 "But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children." (WHY?), Luke 23:29 "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." Luke 23:30 "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Luke 23:31 "For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"

they, the Jews was IGNORANT of his salvation, what he conquered was not physical but spiritual, sin. for it was sin that got them in the condition that they was in in the first place. they had a history of sinning, and God allowed them to be oppressed. they cried, and God sent human saviour that save them from their physical oppression. this went on and on. they sin, God allowed the oppression. they cry out, God sent them a HUMAN saviour a shaliah from their physical oppression. well God put an end to end to the cycle of sin, oppressed, cry-out, and a saviour FROM PHYSICAL OPPRESSION. because their physical oppression. had a ROOT cause ... SIN. which is a spiritual condition. so God came, ... because a NATURAL man cannot deliever one from spiritual oppression. Flesh cannot fight a spirit. for a search was on, Isaiah 59:16 "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him." second witness, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

his OWN ARM is him, God, the Ordinal Last, the Son, the Christ, the suffering Servant, in the ECHAD of God, as the Ordinal Last, God himself "shared" in Flesh, again see Isaiah chapter 53.

as the Christ said, don't mourn/weep for him, but for yourselves.

What about the spirit of grace???

the Lord Jesus Glorified with his own Spirit, (John 17:5), from being G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v. per Philippians 2:7 \. now returned on the day of Pentecost manifested in the Spiritual gifts, as the HOLY SPIRIT, better known as the COMFORTER.


101G

 

[PruePhillip]

What about the spirit of grace???



Who is getting the grace? This is what I'm talking about. What's needed is to go through the verse and identify who is being spoken of in each instance. Here, I'm going to try to do this based on what you've been saying. When I'm done, I don't think it's going to make sense based on how it's written. Then, maybe quote the passage and correct me.

And I [God] will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They [the house of David and Jerusalem] will look on me [Jesus], the one they have pierced,
and they [the house of David and Jerusalem] will mourn for him [Jesus] as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

If i understand, the house of David and Jerusalem receives the spirit of grace. It's poured on them. It just happens. They have no choice. And also the house of David and Jerusalem mourns. They receive grace and then they mourn? And how is it that they receive grace and they do not take part in the glory? And what about Jesus saying, "fools, this was necessary"?

There of course is an option, that the "they" is not the house of David and Jerusalem, and is instead some other unnamed party. But I don't think that's what you're saying. Or, somehow, the spirit of grace isnt really a spirit of grace. I doubt you're saying that either.

This idea that salavation is something that 'just happens' to them is offensive. It negates human choice. Jesus spoke of two at the wheel, one taken, one left. Two in the field, one taken, one left. Two in bed (other side of the world?) and same again.
Why would people mourn the spirit of grace? This is a grace they cannot avail themselves of.

It's interesting - Jesus said of the Jews that Jerusalem will be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles 'until the Gentile's time is fulfilled.'
Jerusalem was back in Jewish hands 1967.

 

[101G]

To my Jewish and Hebrew friends.
the choice is clear, your understanding of the term "ECHAD" is flawed, when it comes to the Godhead, it's just down out-right WRONG;

here is your choices, "PREPARATORY-ECHAD", or "POSTERIORLY-ECHAD". 101G is going with "POSTERIORLY-ECHAD", because no one or thing is before God. so it have to be "POSTERIORLY-ECHAD".

and knowing this, the Lord Jesus is the God of the OT as well as the NT. because Isaiah 48:12 is clear as day, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." the Lord Jesus is the Last, the "I AM"

now my friends U will have to deal with that.

101G see a whole topic coming on this one subject, "the ECHAD of God, preparatory or posteriorly"

well I have some research to do so think on it for now.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

This idea that salavation is something that 'just happens' to them is offensive. It negates human choice. Jesus spoke of two at the wheel, one taken, one left. Two in the field, one taken, one left. Two in bed (other side of the world?) and same again.
Why would people mourn the spirit of grace? This is a grace they cannot avail themselves of.

It's interesting - Jesus said of the Jews that Jerusalem will be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles 'until the Gentile's time is fulfilled.'
Jerusalem was back in Jewish hands 1967.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here. Not one little bit. I'm trying to show you that your understanding of Zecharia 12:10 is extremely unlikely.

1) it needs to be to be taken out of context
2) the pronouns 'me' and 'him' need to be made equivilent
3) the spirit of grace is not a spirit of grace; grace needs to be redefined
4) the spirit of grace, whatever it is, isn't being poured on them

So, that means, this is what the verse actually looks like in order to make it mean what you're saying it means.

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

In other words... the first half of the verse is being rewritten, in order to make the last part fit an interpretation that's taken out of context anyway.

 

[PruePhillip]

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here. Not one little bit. I'm trying to show you that your understanding of Zecharia 12:10 is extremely unlikely.

1) it needs to be to be taken out of context
2) the pronouns 'me' and 'him' need to be made equivilent
3) the spirit of grace is not a spirit of grace; grace needs to be redefined
4) the spirit of grace, whatever it is, isn't being poured on them

So, that means, this is what the verse actually looks like in order to make it mean what you're saying it means.

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

In other words... the first half of the verse is being rewritten, in order to make the last part fit an interpretation that's taken out of context anyway.

What this 'spirit of grace' refers to I cannot tell. I take it that it's a blessing for those who awaited the second coming and a curse to those who didnt believe in the first coming. But what is relevant here is that people will see the one who had been pierced, and they will mourn. Why mourn? Because the mourners did not believe in the one who was pierced, and have no part in his coming kingdom.

 

[Brian2]

What this 'spirit of grace' refers to I cannot tell. I take it that it's a blessing for those who awaited the second coming and a curse to those who didnt believe in the first coming. But what is relevant here is that people will see the one who had been pierced, and they will mourn. Why mourn? Because the mourners did not believe in the one who was pierced, and have no part in his coming kingdom.

Zech 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Interestingly "They will look on me" can be translated as "They will look to me".
Anyway I see the spirit of grace and supplication that is poured out in that day as God having good will towards the Jews and enables them see their error in regard to Jesus and be converted to believe in Him, to mourn and earnestly seek the LORD.
This seems to fit other places in the scripture where God is gracious to the Jews just before the end when Jesus returns.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I think the mourning is sadness because of what they did to their Messiah.

 

[Brian2]

For me, it's a deal breaker. The point of verse 7 is that the suffering servant accepts the suffering. Yes! Jesus did that at the beginning, but didn't do that at the end. Maybe think if it this way? Let's say I sit down to a meal, and say grace thanking God. Then at the end of the meal, I say a 2nd grace thanking Artemis. What happened? I started out doing the right thing, but at the end ... I botched it.

How did Jesus botch it with verse 7?
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

Maybe you can answer this for me? Why is it important for Jesus to be the suffering servant? What is lost in the Jesus story if this prophecy is not him? There's still the miracles. There's still the exocisms. There's still speaking truth to power. There's still concentrating the commandments. There's still the sacrifice. There's still the ressurection. Etc... There's so much there, why go back into the Hebrew bible?

Surely you need to look at the scriptures from the beginning to see what God was wanting to do with the death of Jesus.
A and E brought death to themselves and to the all of humanity as well. We all sin. God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and then God giving the sacrificial laws for Israel seem to me to be prophecies of what He would do to save us from our sins, and death through Jesus sacrifice of Himself. This is also seen in the Passover lamb.
Basically the gospel is nothing without the death and resurrection of Jesus.
There was no atonement in the miracles and teachings of Jesus.
The suffering servant shows Jesus atoning for our sins and it show Him being killed and rising from the dead and giving life to children, the ones who become His children through faith and trust in Him.

Isa 53:8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

"This passage also leaves the Old Testament readers with no excuse."

So, it's not that Jesus ever claimed to be the suffering servant. This is someting that Christians use to show that Jews were/are wrong to reject Jesus. But, like I asked with Zecharia 12, if the story told by Christians is true, then the Jewish people were nothing more than pawns. If Jesus had been accepted, then none of the really important events in the Christian story would have occured. If the Jewish people had accepted him, there would not have been a crucifixion!

So this whole idea of prophecies being obviously fulfilled, makes no sense. The Gospel story, on its own makes sense. Can you address this issue? Wouldn't obvious prophecies pointing to Jesus defeat the entire purpose of Jesus' mission?

If Jesus had not been rejected by most of Israel then I suppose God would have to make atonement through Jesus death in some other way.
The thing is that even though God loves His chosen people, Israel, there was a bigger picture to consider, salvation for Gentiles also.
The Jews are God's witnesses that He is real and what He would do for the whole world. The whole world would be blessed through Abraham and his descendants.
God along the way did give grievances against the Jews and at various times save only a remnant. In Isaiah God says that the mission of Isaiah was to close the eyes and make deaf the Jews lest they see and hear and be healed.

Isa 6:9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

This is repeated in the gospels by Jesus also and why He spoke in parables. (eg Mark 4:12)
The prophecies about the Messiah that the Christians see in the Hebrew scriptures are pretty obviously Messianic imo and yet Jews on the whole deny that even if over the years various Rabbis have seen what Christians see in the prophecies.
We Christians see the Messiah as the one who will rule the world, the creation of God, God's Kingdom, the Son of God who inherits it all, the one who calls God His Father and who is appointed to be God's firstborn,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the one who is rejected and killed by His own people.
Psalm 2, the Son the inheritor of the nations
Dan 7:13,14, the one like a son of man who comes to heaven from earth and is given a Kingdom to rule forever.
Isa 9:1-7, the great light from the region of Galilee who is the child who sits on the throne of David forever.
Ps 89:24-52 The King who calls God His Father, and is made firstborn and rules forever but who is rejected by His people and killed in His youth, and of course God is displeased and turns His hand against His people.

But Zech 12:10 and other Hebrew scriptures (and I suppose Psalm 89) and Romans 11 tell us not only of how God has harded the Jews from hearing His gospel but will also turn them, you, to His anointed again in the final days.

 

[PruePhillip]

Zech 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Interestingly "They will look on me" can be translated as "They will look to me".
Anyway I see the spirit of grace and supplication that is poured out in that day as God having good will towards the Jews and enables them see their error in regard to Jesus and be converted to believe in Him, to mourn and earnestly seek the LORD.
This seems to fit other places in the scripture where God is gracious to the Jews just before the end when Jesus returns.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I think the mourning is sadness because of what they did to their Messiah.

Yes, I often think this too. The Jews were granted their nation back in 1948 and that's a blessing to them, even if this nation was mostly secular at the time.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, I often think this too. The Jews were granted their nation back in 1948 and that's a blessing to them, even if this nation was mostly secular at the time.

It's interesting to consider what the end of the Gentile times would be. I don't think it has happened yet since I don't think Israel can do whatever it wants in Jerusalem. It would not be able to rebuild the Temple without infuriating Islam and being attacked from all sides.
East Jerusalem is regarded as part of the West Bank and a part of Palestinian territories.

 

[PruePhillip]

It's interesting to consider what the end of the Gentile times would be. I don't think it has happened yet since I don't think Israel can do whatever it wants in Jerusalem. It would not be able to rebuild the Temple without infuriating Islam and being attacked from all sides.
East Jerusalem is regarded as part of the West Bank and a part of Palestinian territories.

The point is - Jerusalem is under Jewish control. And this East Jerusalem thing is annoying as that part was seized by the new state of Jordan and the Jews driven out.

 

[Harel13]

To my Hebrew and Jewish friends. instead of coming together, or joining, to make a ECHAD of God, consider this, "emanation". supportive scripture, John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

here, the term "proceeded" in Greek means,
G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v.
to issue.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1537 and G2064]
KJV: come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad
Root(s): G1537, G2064

ANOTHER WORD FOR "ISSUE" IS EMANATE, which means, (of something abstract but perceptible) issue or spread out from (a source):

God is a Spirit .... Abstract, (invisible). but as the definition states, perceptible, (visible). supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

verse 6 states "Who, being in the form of God". being is present tense, and form here is NATURE, which is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

so, the Lord Jesus is in the NATURE of God.... "Spirit", just as EMANATE, states, (of something abstract but perceptible), John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". and he is invisible, abstract, but as EMANATE, states, (of something abstract but perceptible). here is the revelation, the ROOT word of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n. which is (God's NATURE) is,

G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).

guess what is another word that is synonyms with PORTION, when used as a Noun, to describe a part of a WHOLE, as in a ECHAD? answer ...... "SHARE" ... one can find this information here, What is another word for portion? | Portion Synonyms - WordHippo Thesaurus

and also, G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros), means an amount allotted, a part of something, which also means "SHARE" as well as "ISSUE". and the term G1831 ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai (ex-er'-cho-mai) v. to issue, or as the scriptures states "COME FORTH". John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.".

so the proper designation of ECHAD in reference to Almighty God is not a United, or a UNITY, but a "emanation", ....... OF God as the ANOTHER of God in Flesh, Ordinal designations, just as H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') states in Genesis 1:1 LISTEN and LEARN.
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

NOTICE plural .... "OF".... "OF" ..... "OF" ..... H433/God, BINGO, there is the ECHAD. because,
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m. ,,,,,, IS GOD
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

so the ECHAD of God cannot be a "UNITED" ...; ONE, nor a "COMPOUND UNITY", of ONE. it can only be a "DIVERSITY" meaning an "OFFSPRING, of EQUAL ...... "SHARE".

101G.

Why would I base my theology on the language of a people who didn't even have a handy alphabet available before they started trading with the Phoenicians?

 

[Brian2]

So this whole idea of prophecies being obviously fulfilled, makes no sense. The Gospel story, on its own makes sense. Can you address this issue? Wouldn't obvious prophecies pointing to Jesus defeat the entire purpose of Jesus' mission?

When the Exile to Babylon happened there were plenty of plain reasons.
What do Jews think the reasons were for the Exile in 70 AD?
I know Jesus saw a lot wrong with the Jewish leaders of His day, maybe He was right.
Personally I don't think God would kick His people out of Israel for almost 2000 years for a minor issue, I would think the rejecting and killing of the one God appointed to be His firstborn (as Psalm 89 tells us) might be a serious enough reason in God's eyes.
But you don't accept that parts of Psalm 89 are about the Messiah, so what fulfillment do you have that fits the Psalm?
Is there anything other than the rejection and killing of Jesus that the Jews see as fulfillment?
If the only fulfillment possible is the rejection and killing of Jesus then the reason for the 70 AD exile is no doubt that reason.
If that is the case then the rejection and killing of Jesus is also the only reason that you have any fulfillment to tag on to Isa 53, because without His death you would not have been exiled then and would not have suffered all those things at the hands of Gentiles................... imo.