Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[rosends]

@rosends,
a bit of advice, quit while you're ...................... at lease stable. ok.

101G.

A bit of advice -- don't argue in and about languages you are unfamiliar with. Or maybe you like embarrassing yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[PruePhillip]

That's a forgery.

Evidence?

 

[PruePhillip]

A common tactic is to reduce the precision of the original text with the generalities of translation and come to decisions about meanings based on that translation. Your claim was that "'cut off' is the same term" except that is only true if you use a translation that translates 2 different words the same way. The other technique is to fall back on general thematic claims which are only fed by the agenda of the interpretation in the first place. This seems to absolve the interpreter from wrestling with what the text actually says.

Yes, he's 'cut off' from the land of the living, and made his grave with the wicked. But he will live again and be pleased for what he has accomplished. You don't have to explain away one word, but whole themes.

 

[rosends]

Yes, he's 'cut off' from the land of the living, and made his grave with the wicked. But he will live again and be pleased for what he has accomplished. You don't have to explain away one word, but whole themes.

He is decreed to be away from the Living Land and is given a grave with the wicked, but he doesn't die. You can't hide behind general "themes" by ignoring the actual words.

 

[PruePhillip]

He is decreed to be away from the Living Land and is given a grave with the wicked, but he doesn't die. You can't hide behind general "themes" by ignoring the actual words.

.... ignoring actual words

... he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
.... he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
.... the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
....led like a lamb to the slaughter,
...he was taken away.
... or he was cut off from the land of the living;
... He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
.... the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
... After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
... he poured out his life unto death,
.... he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors


Psalm 22
.... My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
....they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
.... All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds
of the nations shall worship before thee.
.... A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that
he hath done this

 

[101G]

You insert a word and then talk about the definition of a word that isn't in the text?

101G inserted nothing, lol, lol, lol,

You then talk about a word within the definition that is in the plural (while there is also a word in the singular...did you miss that?)

no, you missed it... lol, llol, lol, Oh dear.

Learn English and work on your basic reading comprehension. You have no idea what you are talking about.

personal opinion.... (smile) ... garbage can, Oh my, My, MY

101G.

 

[101G]

A bit of advice -- don't argue in and about languages you are unfamiliar with. Or maybe you like embarrassing yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

you don't even UNDERSTAND your own Language, master your own language first before you can guide someone else in theirs..... wink!

101G.

 

[dybmh]

After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;

He will not see "the light of life". It's the labor of his soul.

 

[dybmh]

he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
.... he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;

and by his wounds we are healed.

.... the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

This cannot be a literal sacrifice. That means, whomever this is, they don't literally die. Leviticus 22:24:

You shall not offer to the Lord that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; nor shall you make any offering of it in your land.​

​

Here's a word for word translation. You need to read it right to left, which is backwards from english.

​

 

[PruePhillip]

This cannot be a literal sacrifice. That means, whomever this is, they don't literally die. Leviticus 22:24:

You shall not offer to the Lord that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; nor shall you make any offering of it in your land.​

​

Here's a word for word translation. You need to read it right to left, which is backwards from english.

​

View attachment 75766

This is disengenuous. Christians believe that Jesus is this Messiah, that he lived a perfect life and was the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." We hold that the crushing, the sweat, the blood, the piercing was the process of his final sacrifice.

 

[PruePhillip]

He will not see "the light of life". It's the labor of his soul.

View attachment 75765

It's interesting that Zechariah tells us the Jews will see the one whom they pierced, and understand this. This figured died an excruciating painful death as Isaiah and David mention. And of course, Daniel's account of the Messiah being 'cut off' by the enemy who destroys Israel also points to this - Daniel's Messiah is one who dies 'not for himself'

 

[Brian2]

I would have thought that the OT had a very complete list of the Messianic story. What aspects do you think the OT doesn't cover?

It is not that the OT does not cover it all, it is just that the list of Messianic prophecies that the Jews refer to, and so the Jewish list of things that the Messiah is to do, is not complete.

 

[rosends]

.... ignoring actual words

... he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
.... he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
.... the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
....led like a lamb to the slaughter,
...he was taken away.
... or he was cut off from the land of the living;
... He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
.... the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
... After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
... he poured out his life unto death,
.... he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors


Psalm 22
.... My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
....they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
.... All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds
of the nations shall worship before thee.
.... A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that
he hath done this

Yes, ignoring actual words. Relying on agendized translations and not knowing who is speaking in the verses and about what. Exactly my point - thank you.

 

[rosends]

you don't even UNDERSTAND your own Language, master your own language first before you can guide someone else in theirs..... wink!

101G.

I'm not trying to guide you in your language, only in English and Hebrew, neither of which you know very well. What language do you actually know?

 

[Brian2]

There's more than that, I think you know it.

For a Jew under the Moses Covenant yes, for those under the New Covenant, loving God and neighbour fulfills the requirements of the Law.

If you keep reading just a few more verses the remedy is given. It's not Jesus.

I could not find it but repenting is good and turning to the LORD and His ways.

Repentence itself is the gift.

The risk is when a person stops trying to be good. And even more so if a person uses repentence to ignore their obligations. This idea is written in several places.

Yes, sounds right.

Isaiah 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in YHVH with an everlasting salvation; you shall not be ashamed nor confounded to all eternity.​

​

Acts 1

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”​

​

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

Who has authority over Israel? Not Jesus.

Isaiah 45:9

Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him who fashions it, What do you make? or your work, He has no hands?​

​

Woe to Jesus if he attempts to usurp the authority of his maker.

Isaiah 45:22

Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else.​

​

Jesus is not needed. Not for the Jews, not for anyone. But if the story inspires and directs a person to God, perhaps it's useful. Useful, but not required.

Jesus is the one everyone has to go through, to be judged by in the end.

Psalms 139:160

The sum of your word is truth; and every one of your righteous judgments endures for ever.​

This speaks of the whole of God's Torah, not just the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was for the Jews and in the New Covenant the whole Torah is in our heart by the Spirit of God. We do not live by obeying all the precepts for the Jews that were given for an indefinite time but not forever imo. Circumstances change and so God's Law in precepts has to change to keep up, but the basis of the Law, Love for God and neighbour stays the same and God puts that love in us and we try to follow the leading of the Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, with of course the whole Torah as a guide also, including the New Testament.

None of these prophets are speaking to non-Jews. But all peoples are included in God's plan. This plan is simply not detailed in the Hebrew bible.

Habbakuk 2:13-14

Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the peoples labor only for fire, and the nations weary themselves only for vanity?​

​

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

I undertand and empathize, the non-Jew wants answers and wants details about their story. But those answers and details that they are looking for about their story cannot be found in the Hebrew bible without adding or removing from the text.

Sometimes it is just understanding the text in a different light. But we have the light of the New Testament also.

Clearly there is more to it than belief in Jesus. I don't think I need to bring examples of unholy actions commited by those who believe in Jesus especially the clergy. Even your own words testify to this: "Yet for me, day after day I sin even when I want to do the right thing."

Having the Spirit in the New Covenant does not mean we are perfect or that God forces us to be perfect. God does teach us His ways however for those who repent and we are changed to be more like Him, Jesus, in our character. And Jesus will say to some of those who say they are Christians, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

I have seen no evidence of this. Claiming the name "Israel" and "Levi" for those who are not "Isreal" and "Levi" is theft and it's a lie. You can be a nation, a better nation. You can be priests, better priests. You can have a king, a better king. But none of it is holy if it's built on a lie. Falsehood cannot exist in God's presence.

Proverbs 15:4

A wholesome tongue is a tree of life; but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.​

​

Proverbs 19:9

A false witness shall not go unpunished, and he who speaks lies shall perish.​

That's true and you may be right and God may choose some actual Levites to be His Levite priests forever.

Isaiah 66:21 - God's Final Judgments Against the Wicked

And I will select some of them as priests and Levites, says the LORD.

biblehub.com

But nevertheless God calls us all to be in His Kingdom as priests.

Isaiah 61:6; Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6

but you shall be called the priests of the LORD; they shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory you shall boast.

www.esv.org

 

[rosends]

That's true and you may be right and God may choose some actual Levites to be His Levite priests forever.

Isaiah 66:21 - God's Final Judgments Against the Wicked

And I will select some of them as priests and Levites, says the LORD.

biblehub.com

The text explains that when all this takes place in the future, God will reveal who from among the nations is actually a priest or levite who was among those lost during exile. This will include those who are from those who are clearly Jewish but lost to assimilation and those who are from other nations but, because of intermarriage etc have lost connection to their ancestry:

As Rashi explains,

"From the peoples bringing them and from those brought, I will take priests and Levites, for they are now assimilated among the nations under coercion, and before Me the priests and the Levites among them are revealed, and I will select them from among them, and they shall minister before Me, said the Lord. Now where did He say it? (Deut. 29:28) “The hidden things are for the Lord our God.” "

But nevertheless God calls us all to be in His Kingdom as priests.

Isaiah 61:6; Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6

but you shall be called the priests of the LORD; they shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory you shall boast.

www.esv.org

this is speaking of a future in which the Jews inherit all that belongs to the splendor of the other nations. That hasn't happened yet. The word "priest" here does not mean "of the priestly caste" but "ministers" or "princes" or "officers." The Ibn Ezra explains the process as follows

"I said already that the meaning of כהן is, one that ministers; it is therefore qualified here by the genitive of our God. The other nations will resemble the Israelites, and the Israelites will be like the Aaronites; the Israelites will therefore receive the abundance of nations as their tithes."

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all

I'm not trying to guide you in your language, only in English and Hebrew, neither of which you know very well. What language do you actually

that's all you have? your belief that Israel is the one spoken of in Isaiah 53 has been fully debunked. LOL, LOL, LOL, Oh dear.

for anyone to continue to think/believe that Israel as a whole is the one spoken of in chapter 53 of Isaiah is not only IGNORANT but is in denial of stupidity.

101G

 

[Brian2]

This is a common miscomprehension. It's natural to combine concepts together in error when a person doesn't understand.

In this case it is probably natural to divide the concepts and divide the Messiah into different persons when the reality is that Jesus is all 3.

The law is different for the non-Jew. This is evident in the book of Acts.

In Acts 15 we see that God has given salvation to the Gentiles who repent and turn to Him through Jesus, but some of the Jewish Christians want the Gentiles also to be compelled to be circumcised and obey the Law.
For the sake of their scruples and Gentile Christians mixing with Jewish Christians as they should, it was decided that the Gentiles should be told to do those things that Gentiles were to do when they become Jews.

If you believe this to be true, then you must do justly and stop pretending to be Israel and Levi. Those names were not given to you. Your name is "Χριστιανός". A beautiful name with an important meaning and purpose.

I am not a Levi or and Israelite in the flesh but probably not all Israelites in the flesh are Israelites by faith and I see myself as being a descendant of Abraham through faith.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:11-31 - English Standard Version

Gentiles Grafted In - So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how...

www.biblegateway.com

If you renounce the delusion of "Spiritual Israel", I will be happy to explain it. Otherwise I refer you to Psalms 101, specifically verse 7:

​

He who works deceit shall not dwell in my house; he who tells lies shall not remain in my sight.​

Most everyone has beliefs that are incorrect and all these will be corrected. I think that those who work deceit and who tell lies in the Psalm could be referring to those who are purposefully being deceitful and lying.

It's prohibitted to add or remove from the Law. The guilt offering is precise, serves a specific purpose, it does not go beyond it.

Proverbs 30:6

Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.​

So does God make the servant's life an atonement for sin at Isa 53:10 or not?

Jesus was not a priest of any sort. But considering the history of the priesthood, this is probably a good thing.

Are you saying that the one who is a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek (Psalm 110) has to be a Levitical priest?

If read literally word by word it says:

אִם־תָּשִׂים - if [set/established/made]
אָשָׁם - guilt
נַפְשׁוֹ - his soul

Does that mean that Christian translations are wrong?
The Tanach at the web site below has similar to a Christian translation.

The Tanakh [Full Text]

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Have you learned leviticus yet?

No.

Jesus was silent at points in the story, but was not able to remain that way. Verse 7 is softened, the expectations are lowered for what it means to accept God's will and suffer in silence.

Maybe you are just making the expectations higher than verse 7 tells us. He was silent before those who killed Him, like a sheep before it's shearers is silent.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

Often what I see happening is a flip-flop between a literal and poetic understanding. And also a double standard when comes to taking things in and out of context. Certainly you wouldn't want the message of the Christian bible to be altered by taking verses out of context.

You want the servant to be the nation Israel but when it suits (eg the servant of Isa 49 who is said to be Isaiah) it is fine if the servant is not the nation Israel.
You can say "flip-flop" but in normal speech metaphors are used amongst the literal.

Notice what happened. The prophecy is understood literally to a point, but seeing "children" is understood poetically.

Poetically yes and no. I see myself as the child of Jesus, the one who gives me eternal life, so a literal child but just not one in the sense of a human birth etc.
Maybe you can see where the nation of Israel does not fit the prophecy (as it does not in Isaiah 49 also.)

I asked about this previously, can you quote the verses in order and comment on them showing these details? Specifically killed by the Jews?

Psalm 89:24-37 speaks about the Messiah who call God his Father and his Rock and is appointed to be God's firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Then is goes on to speak about his sons and how God would forgive them and that God would not violate the Covenant with David, that His line would go on forever.
Then in verse 38-45 it is speaks of "you" (meaning the Jews) having rejected "your" anointed one and so on and put an end to his splendor and cast his crown to the ground and killed him in his youth and shamed him.
Then (verse 46-51) there is what seems like a lament about how long God is going to be angry and hide his face, probably because of what the Jews have done to their anointed one, God's firstborn, the one He has apointed to be higher than the kings of the earth.

But the details do not match Jesus. Do you understand how an illusion works? Most often it's misdirection. One detail is held up high and waved vigorously, while the important details are overlooked.

And sitting on the throne of David forever is not an important detail to you I suppose.
But how do the details not match Jesus?
If the sitting on the throne of David forever is seen there at all then the prophecy goes beyond Hezekiah, whose name does not even mean "Mighty God".
And if it goes beyond Hezekiah then the prophetic perfect tense can be seen in the prophecy.

 

[Brian2]

The text explains that when all this takes place in the future, God will reveal who from among the nations is actually a priest or levite who was among those lost during exile. This will include those who are from those who are clearly Jewish but lost to assimilation and those who are from other nations but, because of intermarriage etc have lost connection to their ancestry:

As Rashi explains,

"From the peoples bringing them and from those brought, I will take priests and Levites, for they are now assimilated among the nations under coercion, and before Me the priests and the Levites among them are revealed, and I will select them from among them, and they shall minister before Me, said the Lord. Now where did He say it? (Deut. 29:28) “The hidden things are for the Lord our God.” "

I was not denying that God may choose Levites who were actually Levites but lost it all in the Exile.

this is speaking of a future in which the Jews inherit all that belongs to the splendor of the other nations. That hasn't happened yet. The word "priest" here does not mean "of the priestly caste" but "ministers" or "princes" or "officers." The Ibn Ezra explains the process as follows

"I said already that the meaning of כהן is, one that ministers; it is therefore qualified here by the genitive of our God. The other nations will resemble the Israelites, and the Israelites will be like the Aaronites; the Israelites will therefore receive the abundance of nations as their tithes."

Yes it appears to be a future thing, waiting for the Jews to be in the Kingdom and New Covenant. The Kingdom has been going in it's infancy since Jesus, and collecting citizens and will be set up in it's fulness when the age is ended and the Messiah comes (again) as King and judge etc .

 

[101G]

In Acts 15 we see that God has given salvation to the Gentiles who repent and turn to Him through Jesus, but some of the Jewish Christians want the Gentiles also to be compelled to be circumcised and obey the Law.
For the sake of their scruples and Gentile Christians mixing with Jewish Christians as they should, it was decided that the Gentiles should be told to do those things that Gentiles were to do when they become Jews.

on point.

Most everyone has beliefs that are incorrect and all these will be corrected. I think that those who work deceit and who tell lies in the Psalm could be referring to those who are purposefully being deceitful and lying.

another good point,

Poetically yes and no. I see myself as the child of Jesus, the one who gives me eternal life, so a literal child but just not one in the sense of a human birth etc.
Maybe you can see where the nation of Israel does not fit the prophecy (as it does not in Isaiah 49 also.)

Good.

Psalm 89:24-37 speaks about the Messiah who call God his Father and his Rock and is appointed to be God's firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Then is goes on to speak about his sons and how God would forgive them and that God would not violate the Covenant with David, that His line would go on forever.
Then in verse 38-45 it is speaks of "you" (meaning the Jews) having rejected "your" anointed one and so on and put an end to his splendor and cast his crown to the ground and killed him in his youth and shamed him.
Then (verse 46-51) there is what seems like a lament about how long God is going to be angry and hide his face, probably because of what the Jews have done to their anointed one, God's firstborn, the one He has apointed to be higher than the kings of the earth.

Hmmmmm......

And sitting on the throne of David forever is not an important detail to you I suppose.
But how do the details not match Jesus?
If the sitting on the throne of David forever is seen there at all then the prophecy goes beyond Hezekiah, whose name does not even mean "Mighty God".
And if it goes beyond Hezekiah then the prophetic perfect tense can be seen in the prophecy.

spot on.

101G