Isaiah Chapter 63.

[John D. Brey]

In another thread, @IndigoChild5559 questioned whether there's a prophesy concerning Messiah destroying a lot of people. My initial response dove into the exegesis of Isaiah chapter 63 a bit deeper than I thought IndigoChild5559 would enjoy or entertain such that I nixed that message and decided to provide the exegesis to Isaiah chapter 63 as a freestanding thread.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

In another thread, @IndigoChild5559 questioned whether there's a prophesy concerning Messiah destroying a lot of people. My initial response dove into the exegesis of Isaiah chapter 63 a bit deeper than I thought IndigoChild5559 would enjoy or entertain such that I nixed that message and decided to provide the exegesis to Isaiah chapter 63 as a freestanding thread.

Although it may perturb some Jews to hear Christians argue that Messiah will destroy a large number of people just prior to, or as part-and-parcel of the redemption that's the foyer to the messianic-age, nevertheless, the prism used to interpret the messianic-prophesies determines whether or not that is or isn't the case. Many Jewish sages who might agree Messiah is a metaphor for certain kinds of actions and events, as well as being a type of the nation of Israel as a whole, nevertheless tend to concede that the Tanakh also teaches of a singular Messiah who's the archetype for all the messianic actions and events that might preceed his eventual unveiling before all the world. Maimonides, for instance, teaches that anyone who rejects the arrival of a singular Messiah is not teaching Judaism proper (or at least not properly).

As long as we teach Judaism properly, at least so far as Maimonides is concerned, we can say: Yes Virginia, Messiah will indeed destroy a large swath of people. And when we find out precisely who's included in the lot of the dead and dying we might begin to understand why so many Jewish exegetes aren't as straightforward in their interpretation of the numerous prophetic passages that say so as they should be. Carefully exegeted, Isaiah chapter 63 paints a picture very few Jews would like to look at. I mean who could deny that it's tastelessness of the highest order to paint a picture of the greatest hero of the Bible from his corpse? Faithfully exegeted, that's precisely what Isaiah chapter 63 does.



John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Although it may perturb some Jews to hear Christians argue that Messiah will destroy a large number of people just prior to, or as part-and-parcel of the redemption that's the foyer to the messianic-age, nevertheless, the prism used to interpret the messianic-prophesies determines whether or not that is or isn't the case. Many Jewish sages who might agree Messiah is a metaphor for certain kinds of actions and events, as well being a type of the nation of Israel as a whole, nevertheless tend to concede that the Tanakh also teaches of a singular Messiah who's the archetype for all the messianic actions and events that might preceed his eventual unveiling before all the world. Maimonides, for instance, teaches that anyone who rejects the arrival of a singular Messiah is not teaching Judaism proper (or at least not properly).

As long as we teach Judaism properly, at least so far as Maimonides is concerned, we can say: Yes Virginia, Messiah will indeed destroy a large swath of people. And when we find out precisely who's included in the lot of the dead and dying we might begin to understand why so many Jewish exegetes aren't as straightforward in their interpretation of the numerous prophetic passages that say so as they should be. Carefully exegeted, Isaiah chapter 63 paints a picture very few Jews would like to look at. I mean who could deny that it's tastelessness of the highest order to paint a picture of the greatest hero of the Bible from his corpse? Faithfully exegeted, that's precisely what Isaiah chapter 63 does.



John

Isaiah 63 is about God, not the messiah.

 

[John D. Brey]

Isaiah 63 is about God, not the messiah.

What if they're one and the same?



John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What if they're one and the same?

That idea never existed until Christianity. That's why you find nothing about any such thing in the Tanakh.

 

[John D. Brey]

That idea never existed until Christianity. That's why you find nothing about any such thing in the Tanakh.

I would say, with Sartre, we mostly find what we're looking for. Jews aren't looking in the Tanakh to find an idea virgin born in Christianity. I, on the other hand, am. That said, how would you define the "arm of the Lord" as used in Isaiah?



John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

the "arm of the Lord" as used in Isaiah?

I didn't look it up for context or anything, but off the top of my head, it is a metaphor that refers to God's power and might.

 

[John D. Brey]

I didn't look it up for context or anything, but off the top of my head, it is a metaphor that refers to God's power and might.

How would you negotiate the transition between the second statement in Isaiah 53 (To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?), and the third statement (For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant)? In your opinion, does the third statement refer to the second?



John

 

[GoodAttention]

Isaiah 63 is about God, not the messiah.

Is it?

Reads like it is about a “mighty” man from Edom who was able to slay his enemies, even though the city was destroyed.

It sounds like he meets with the Jews who’s city/temple has been destroyed, and he praises God nevertheless, asking that he and his people be “remembered” again, foretelling perhaps their joining of the Jewish people?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is it?

Reads like it is about a “mighty” man from Edom who was able to slay his enemies, even though the city was destroyed.

It sounds like he meets with the Jews who’s city/temple has been destroyed, and he praises God nevertheless, asking that he and his people be “remembered” again, foretelling perhaps their joining of the Jewish people?

Ibn Ezra, Rashi, and Radok all say the passage is about God. Edom represents the nations hostile to Israel, and the passage is about God's future vindication of the Jews, with the description of "the man from Edom" referring to God having dealt with these nations.

 

[GoodAttention]

Ibn Ezra, Rashi, and Radok all say the passage is about God. Edom represents the nations hostile to Israel, and the passage is about God's future vindication of the Jews, with the description of "the man from Edom" referring to God having dealt with these nations.

Ibn Ezra, Rashi, and Radok all say the passage is about God. Edom represents the nations hostile to Israel, and the passage is about God's future vindication of the Jews, with the description of "the man from Edom" referring to God having dealt with these nations.

Interesting.

I thought it was describing Obadiah directly.

 

[dybmh]

how would you define the "arm of the Lord" as used in Isaiah?

It's defined in verse 12. It's the power which parted the waters at the right hand of Moses.

מוליך לימין משה זרוע תפארתו בוקע מים מפניהם לעשות לו שם עולם׃

Who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, parting the waters before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

 

[metis]

What if they're one and the same?



John

They clearly are not. When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed to his Father, which would make no sense if they were one & the same.

 

[BrokenBread]

Isa 63:2-4
Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

It is as clear as the noonday sun to me that this is a direct reference and further detailing of Jacob's chronological prophesy of Messiah's transitory nature, from helpless lion's whelp to the full grown Lion of the Tribe of Judah , full of greatness of strength, whose hand is in the neck of His enemies, and whose clothes are likewise stained in the blood of His enemies who have roused Him up to His day of vengeance .
The symmetry is unmistakable.

Gen 49:8-12
Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

 

[dybmh]

Isa 63:2-4
Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

It is as clear as the noonday sun to me that this is a direct reference and further detailing of Jacob's chronological prophesy of Messiah's transitory nature, from helpless lion's whelp to the full grown Lion of the Tribe of Judah , full of greatness of strength, whose hand is in the neck of His enemies, and whose clothes are likewise stained in the blood of His enemies who have roused Him up to His day of vengeance .
The symmetry is unmistakable.

Gen 49:8-12
Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Hello, it's nice to meet you. I'm really enjoying what you've written. I had never read it that way.

I'm curious, most sincerely, if the transitory nature is also reflected in Gen 49?

Thank you,

 

[GoodAttention]

How would you negotiate the transition between the second statement in Isaiah 53 (To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?), and the third statement (For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant)? In your opinion, does the third statement refer to the second?



John

The first statement is very important, “who has believed our message”, being who knows God is the one true God without equal, flows on to the next, which is, “to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?” which I read to say “who is a Jew?”.

The answer should be one and the same, meaning to all Jews has the Lords arm been revealed, but this chapter goes on to explore the separation between the free and those in slavery.

“For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and like a root out of dry ground” explains that, though seemingly vulnerable, even an enslaved Jew is watched over and remains connected to God and his creation.

My interpretation of this chapter is that it reads as a prophecy for Jeremiah, the prophet who will end slavery amongst the Jewish people.

 

[dybmh]

How would you negotiate the transition between the second statement in Isaiah 53 (To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?), and the third statement (For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant)? In your opinion, does the third statement refer to the second?

"How would you ... ? "

By comparing and contrasting the two images. How are they the same and how are they different?

To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? ... For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant

"An arm is being revealed" <<< compared/contrasted >>> "a tender plant is growing up"

 

[BrokenBread]

Hello, it's nice to meet you. I'm really enjoying what you've written. I had never read it that way.

I'm curious, most sincerely, if the transitory nature is also reflected in Gen 49?

Thank you,

Yes I believe there is a duel transitory meaning in Gen. 49 with regard to two separate terms being used for His vesture being stained in a different manner, "garments" in wine, and "clothes" in the "blood of Grapes" in the same sentence that also can be seen as transitioning to Isaiah 63 .
I believe that Gen49 "he washed his garments in wine" is reference to wine being symbol of His Blessing.
"he washed his garments in wine" He shed the wine of His Blood of His own volition for Blessing.
This was the young lion's whelp Jacob first mentions whose garment's will be stained with the wine of his own blood, shed for Blessing.
Jhn 19:2
And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
Luk 23:34
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots

But notice in the future detailing of the prophesy by Isaiah 63 the roused up Lion of the Tribe of Judah, full of power, has His "garments" not stained with the Blessing of wine of his own blood, but with the blood of His enemies :
"...and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments," Isaiah 63

Corresponding with the second mention of Jacob in the same verse of His clothes being stained differently with what to me is much more a symbol of vengeance , and of a winepress being trodden in anger, the "Blood of Grapes"

" ...and his clothes in the blood of grapes:" (Gen. 49)




Also notice Isaiah's combining mention of the Blessing of wine & milk together is almost identical to Jacob's combining the two in his prophesy of Judah which contains both Blessing and vengeance .

" buy wine and milk without money and without price." -Isaiah 55-1

"His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk." -Genesis 49:12







I

 

[John D. Brey]

Ibn Ezra, Rashi, and Radok all say the passage is about God. Edom represents the nations hostile to Israel, and the passage is about God's future vindication of the Jews, with the description of "the man from Edom" referring to God having dealt with these nations.

It's clearly about God's retribution. The question is the means (the "arm of the Lord") through which the retribution comes. Isaiah 63 parallels Isaiah 34, specifically verses 6-8, with emphasis on verse 8, which claims the slaughter in Bozrah is recompense for a controversy ריב, or forensic cause related to Zion. And since Ibn Ezra points out that these verses (Isaiah 34:6-8) are messianic, it's fair to assume Isaiah 63 (which parallels 34) is messianic. Which puts great emphasis on the "controversy" (KJV) or "forensic cause" (Gesenius), that causes the retribution?

The slaughter in Isaiah 63 is brought by God as a retribution against his enemies prior to the start of the messianic-age. It seems fair to say that Messiah is the "arm of the Lord" through whom the retribution comes, since it's Messiah who will defeat Edom prior to the start of the Kingdom of God ruled over by Messiah.

Are you ok with the retribution in Isaiah 63 being affected by Messiah as the "arm of the Lord"?



John

 

[John D. Brey]

It's defined in verse 12. It's the power which parted the waters at the right hand of Moses.

מוליך לימין משה זרוע תפארתו בוקע מים מפניהם לעשות לו שם עולם׃

Who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, parting the waters before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

Who, or what, but the rod of Moses, aka Nehushtan, is in Moses' right hand when he turns the water to blood, parts the sea, and then throw it in to purify the bitter waters. That peculiar serpent-rod (carried in Moses' right hand) can kill or save. Which kinda segues into the personage in Isaiah 63, who's no doubt a Gestalt-like shape-shifter morphing between savior (63:8) and slaughterer (63:10).



John