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Isaiah Chapter 63.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
They clearly are not. When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed to his Father, which would make no sense if they were one & the same.

The trinity makes no sense unless one allows God to have various manifestations and hypostases all of which are united without loss or diminution of separate identities, and yet without loss of a unified identity. It's similar to the phrase "the Lord-God" יהוה אלהים found throughout the Tanakh: is it the Lord, or is it God? And if both are the same, why the different names or titles, Shaddai, Adonai, etc..

Admittedly Jesus versus the Father is a different kind, or more manifest, sort of unification. And it's that particular unity that Judaism rejects, but which is the very basis for the Christian message.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The first statement is very important, “who has believed our message”, being who knows God is the one true God without equal, flows on to the next, which is, “to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?” which I read to say “who is a Jew?”.

Why does it mean "who is a Jew"?

The answer should be one and the same, meaning to all Jews has the Lords arm been revealed, but this chapter goes on to explore the separation between the free and those in slavery.

I don't get that either?

“For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and like a root out of dry ground” explains that, though seemingly vulnerable, even an enslaved Jew is watched over and remains connected to God and his creation.

Is the phrase "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plance, and like a root out of dry ground" speaking specifically of Messiah?




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
No. Perhaps it wasn't you that I responded to, but I previously stated that "the arm of the Lord" simply refers to God's power and might.

Isn't Messiah a man-ifestation of that power and might? Wasn't the rod in Moses' hand a manifestation of the power of God? Isn't the implementation of God's power manifest through various visible and tangible tools (like Mose's rod)?




John
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Isn't Messiah a man-ifestation of that power and might?
That's irrelevant. You asked if I thought the Messiah were the "arm of God." I quite clearly said no. I said that the "arm of God" referred simply to God's power and might. Unless you are under the empression that God ONLY express his power through the messiah, then the two statements are not interchangable.

If you want to disagree with me, I'm absolutely fine with that. But please don't try argue with me that I really believe something other than what I said I believe.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes I believe there is a duel transitory meaning in Gen. 49 with regard to two separate terms being used for His vesture being stained in a different manner, "garments" in wine, and "clothes" in the "blood of Grapes" in the same sentence that also can be seen as transitioning to Isaiah 63 .
I believe that Gen49 "he washed his garments in wine" is reference to wine being symbol of His Blessing.
"he washed his garments in wine" He shed the wine of His Blood of His own volition for Blessing.
This was the young lion's whelp Jacob first mentions whose garment's will be stained with the wine of his own blood, shed for Blessing.
Jhn 19:2
And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
Luk 23:34
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots

But notice in the future detailing of the prophesy by Isaiah 63 the roused up Lion of the Tribe of Judah, full of power, has His "garments" not stained with the Blessing of wine of his own blood, but with the blood of His enemies :
"...and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments," Isaiah 63

Corresponding with the second mention of Jacob in the same verse of His clothes being stained differently with what to me is much more a symbol of vengeance , and of a winepress being trodden in anger, the "Blood of Grapes"

" ...and his clothes in the blood of grapes:" (Gen. 49)

Bringing in Genesis 49 is very useful in noting the transition taking place in Isaiah 63. Particularly since, as you're pointing out, there are two sources of blood on the garments of the personage in the crosshairs of Isaiah chapter 63.

Isaiah 63 starts out with the person already having a bloodstained garment seemingly prior to the killing. When in verse 2, he's asked why his garment is already blood-stained, he doesn't respond that he's just killed people, that comes latter, but that he's tread the winepress alone (to provide himself salvation). Similarly, in numerous messianic-passages throughout Isaiah, Messiah asks why it is that when he came no one listened to him, why did no one help him, to which he responds that for that reason he provided salvation alone, singularly.

3 I have trodden the winepress alone;​
And of the people there was none with me:​
For I will tread them in mine anger,​
And trample them in my fury;​
And their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,​
And I will stain all my raiment.​
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart,​
And the year of my redeemed is come.​

In verse 2, when asked why his garment is bloodstained (already), he relates it to securing salvation singularly. He then predicts that these same bloodstained (already) garments will get splattered with the blood of his enemies.

3. פורה דרכתי לבדי ---I alone have trodden a winepress, unaided by the merits of Israel (Radak). Although God often acts by virtue of Israel's meritorious deeds, the scale of ultimate Redemption will transcend Israel's merit, requiring Him to act alone.​
The Milstein Edition, the Prophets, Isaiah 63:3.​

Ultimate salvation was provided alone, on a lonely hill, by Messiah, singularly. That's the blood that's already on his garment when he comes (returns) to slaughter his enemies just prior to the beginning of the Kingdom of God.

13 And he was clothed [already] with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​
Revelation 19:13-16.​

In this parallel passage from the New Testament, Messiah comes wearing (already) a vesture dipped in blood (his own), that is, prior to the destruction of the enemies of God (which follows). The transformation between Messiah son of Joseph, who's made to wear his own blood, versus Messiah ben David, who gets the blood of his enemies splattered on his already red garment, is, perhaps, a New Testament sort of transformation of Messiah, even though hidden elements of it are found throughout the Tanakh. If one reads the Jewish commentaries on Isaiah 63, many of them see veiled (and not so veiled) references to the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem.

For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me. . . Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple. It's the sound of the Lord repaying his enemies all they deserve.​
Isaiah 66:4 & 666.​

Judaism's interpretation of the slaughter that precedes the Kingdom age doesn't typically include Jews and wayward Israel in the pre-Kingdom destruction wrought by Messiah. Nevertheless, Genesis 49:8, implies that the enemies of Judah are of his own household, his brother's who praise him but are nowhere to be seen when the time to secure salvation arrives. In Isaiah chapter 66:4 (just 3 chapters removed from chapter 63) we hear of Messiah calling, and no one answers, speaking, and no one listens. The result (just two verses removed, verse 666, as it were), prophesy what occurs when, just 40 years removed from the events of 66:4, the Romans destroy the temple. In Isaiah 666, its the temple in Jerusalem that's being destroyed, and Israel who are in the crosshair of God's judgment.

Versification isn't canonical (it's not part of the signature text), nevertheless it's ironic, at least, that the anti-Christ, who Jesus said Israel will happily welcome after having shunned him, is said to destroy the temple by placing a statue of himself in the most holy place (ala Antiochus). That the prophet Isaiah's prophesy of the destruction of the temple would include its two-fold transformation, that is that it would be related to AD 70, and also the tribulational temple, and that both destructions would be seen in one verse, 666 (requiring a vertiginous Gestalt-shift) is at least astronomically peculiar.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
That's irrelevant. You asked if I thought the Messiah were the "arm of God." I quite clearly said no. I said that the "arm of God" referred simply to God's power and might. Unless you are under the empression that God ONLY express his power through the messiah, then the two statements are not interchangable.

If you want to disagree with me, I'm absolutely fine with that. But please don't try argue with me that I really believe something other than what I said I believe.

It's seems like you're arguing an obscure semantic difference since the "arm" of the Lord is clearlly anthropopmorphic. I'm confident you don't believe God has an "arm."

Surely when Moses lifted his rod to affect divine commands, his arm (the one lifting the rod), was, at that moment, the "arm" of the Lord: the arm vested with the command and thus the power of God?

Surely Messiah, when fulfilling prophesies promised of God, is acting as the "arm of the Lord"? The nation of Israel, under the same circumstances, is surely the "arm of the Lord"?



John
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Who, or what, but the rod of Moses, aka Nehushtan, is in Moses' right hand when he turns the water to blood, parts the sea, and then throw it in to purify the bitter waters. That peculiar serpent-rod (carried in Moses' right hand) can kill or save. Which kinda segues into the personage in Isaiah 63, who's no doubt a Gestalt-like shape-shifter morphing between savior (63:8) and slaughterer (63:10).

I don't know. Maybe.

It's defined in verse 12. It's the power which parted the waters at the right hand of Moses.

מוליך לימין משה זרוע תפארתו בוקע מים מפניהם לעשות לו שם עולם׃

Who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, parting the waters before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

Elaborating further...

1) I'm wondering: "Is this the right arm or the left? If it's at Moses' right hand, then, this is the left-arm?"

2) Tracing this back to Exodus, it's 14:21

ויט משה את־ידו על־הים ויולך יהוה את־הים ברוח קדים עזה כל־הלילה וישם את־הים לחרבה ויבקעו המים׃​

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind " ברוח קדים עזה " all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.​

Thoughts?
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Why does it mean "who is a Jew"?

It’s my interpretation. The arm of the Lord has been revealed to the Israelites through Moses.

I don't get that either?

The person being described is a slave of Israel, of which there are different types and lengths of servitude.

Unfortunately there was a period of time when slaves were being mistreated and not released after their indenture, which leads to Jeremiah ending slavery, through Gods will.

I believe the verses are describing a slave of Israel who is freed to become a “friend and neighbour” instead.

Is the phrase "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plance, and like a root out of dry ground" speaking specifically of Messiah?

That’s not what I interpret, no.
 
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
It's clearly about God's retribution. The question is the means (the "arm of the Lord") through which the retribution comes.

This is about vengeance and redemption, not retribution.

The question is, who’s?

The vengeance is upon Edom, yes, but so is the redemption.

The main character speaking is a “wise man of Edom”, a man “of understanding of the mountains of Esau” who is Obadiah, the Edomite prophet.

I believe this chapter of Isaiah is in complement with Obadiah’s Vision scripture.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Elaborating further...

1) I'm wondering: "Is this the right arm or the left? If it's at Moses' right hand, then, this is the left-arm?"

What do you propose?

2) Tracing this back to Exodus, it's 14:21

ויט משה את־ידו על־הים ויולך יהוה את־הים ברוח קדים עזה כל־הלילה וישם את־הים לחרבה ויבקעו המים׃​

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind " ברוח קדים עזה " all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.​

Thoughts?

Are you familiar with the Midrash at Mekilta Beshalach, Vayehi 5 on that verse?

(Exodus 14:21) "And Moses stretched his hand over the sea": and the sea resisted — whereupon Moses commanded it to split in the name of the Holy One Blessed be He; but it continued to resist. He showed him the staff, but it continued to resist. An analogy: A king had two gardens, one within the other. He sold the inner and the buyer came to take possession, but the watchman barred him. The buyer said: "In the name of the king," but he still resisted. He showed him the (king's) signet, but he still resisted — until he conducted the king himself there — at which the watchman began to flee. At this, the buyer said: The whole day I told you "In the name of the king," and you did not accept that. Why are you fleeing now? — whereupon the watchman said: I am not fleeing you, but the king. Thus, Moses stood at the sea and commanded it to split in the name of the Holy One Blessed be He, to no avail. He showed him the staff, to no avail — until the Holy One Blessed be He revealed Himself upon it in His full glory and strength — whereupon the sea fled, viz. (Psalms 114:3) "The sea saw and fled." Moses said to it: The whole day I said to you "In the name of the Holy One Blessed be He," and you resisted. Why do you flee now? "What ails you, O sea, that you are fleeing?" (Ibid. 5) — at which the sea replied: I am not fleeing you, son of Amram, but (Ibid. 7-8) "Before the Master, quake, O earth, before the G–d of Israel, who turns the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a spring of water!"​

We dealt with this midrash in a thread called Midrash in a Simulacrum last year (not sure if you participated or not). I think the primary issue in this current thread centers around the midrash above, viz a viz, why did the sea not recognize (i.e., obey) the mediator of God's power (Moses' hand with the rod of God in it), and in what manner was God's power recognized (such that the sea obeyed) if not in the avatar of that power specifically empowered and authorized by God and given to Moses (in the form of the rod of God in his hand)?



John
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
What do you propose?



Are you familiar with the Midrash at Mekilta Beshalach, Vayehi 5 on that verse?

(Exodus 14:21) "And Moses stretched his hand over the sea": and the sea resisted — whereupon Moses commanded it to split in the name of the Holy One Blessed be He; but it continued to resist. He showed him the staff, but it continued to resist. An analogy: A king had two gardens, one within the other. He sold the inner and the buyer came to take possession, but the watchman barred him. The buyer said: "In the name of the king," but he still resisted. He showed him the (king's) signet, but he still resisted — until he conducted the king himself there — at which the watchman began to flee. At this, the buyer said: The whole day I told you "In the name of the king," and you did not accept that. Why are you fleeing now? — whereupon the watchman said: I am not fleeing you, but the king. Thus, Moses stood at the sea and commanded it to split in the name of the Holy One Blessed be He, to no avail. He showed him the staff, to no avail — until the Holy One Blessed be He revealed Himself upon it in His full glory and strength — whereupon the sea fled, viz. (Psalms 114:3) "The sea saw and fled." Moses said to it: The whole day I said to you "In the name of the Holy One Blessed be He," and you resisted. Why do you flee now? "What ails you, O sea, that you are fleeing?" (Ibid. 5) — at which the sea replied: I am not fleeing you, son of Amram, but (Ibid. 7-8) "Before the Master, quake, O earth, before the G–d of Israel, who turns the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a spring of water!"​

We dealt with this midrash in a thread called Midrash in a Simulacrum last year (not sure if you participated or not). I think the primary issue in this current thread centers around the midrash above, viz a viz, why did the sea not recognize (i.e., obey) the mediator of God's power (Moses' hand with the rod of God in it), and in what manner was God's power recognized (such that the sea obeyed) if not in the avatar of that power specifically empowered and authorized by God and given to Moses (in the form of the rod of God in his hand)?



John

Why do you refer to the staff as the “rod of God”?

It was in Moses hand from the beginning, and Aaron also uses it.

It doesn’t have any “power”.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
What do you propose?

I'm not certain, by any means. But, I've settled on the left-arm, a manifestation of God's strict justice. This is consistent with the red imagery. I no longer think God is facing Moses. That happens later, Exo 34. Here, I think God is leading them. So Moses is facing in the same direction as God. Egypt is north ( " evil comes from the north... " Jeremiah 1 ), Sinai is south.

If God is facing towards Sinai, south, and originates its power in the east, then pushes west, that force is coming from the left.

It's the best I've got.

Are you familiar with the Midrash at Mekilta Beshalach, Vayehi 5 on that verse?

Not at all.

until the Holy One Blessed be He revealed Himself upon it in His full glory and strength

Thank you.

I'd need the Hebrew to accurately decode this, however, it appears that the sea responded to a revelation of Kavod and Gevruah. Technically, it would be Kavod Sh'B'Gevurah, Kavod which is in Gevurah. If so, the external manifestation is "left", the inner dimension is "right".

However, it could be Kavod and Gedulah. That's all right-handed. Or something else...
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
(Psalms 114:3) "The sea saw and fled." Moses said to it: The whole day I said to you "In the name of the Holy One Blessed be He," and you resisted. Why do you flee now? "What ails you, O sea, that you are fleeing?" (Ibid. 5) — at which the sea replied: I am not fleeing you, son of Amram, but (Ibid. 7-8) "Before the Master, quake, O earth, before the G–d of Israel, who turns the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a spring of water!"

114:7
מלפני אדון חולי ארץ מלפני אלוה יעקב׃
Tremble, earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;

114:8
ההפכי הצור אגם־מים חלמיש למעינו־מים׃
Who turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters.

צור >> becomes >> גם
חלמיש >> becomes >> מעינו
 

BrokenBread

Member
Bringing in Genesis 49 is very useful in noting the transition taking place in Isaiah 63. Particularly since, as you're pointing out, there are two sources of blood on the garments of the personage in the crosshairs of Isaiah chapter 63.


3 I have trodden the winepress alone;​
And of the people there was none with me:​
For I will tread them in mine anger,​
And trample them in my fury;​
And their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,​
And I will stain all my raiment.​
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart,​
And the year of my redeemed is come.​

In verse 2, when asked why his garment is bloodstained (already), he relates it to securing salvation singularly. He then predicts that these same bloodstained (already) garments will get splattered with the blood of his enemies.

.Ultimate salvation was provided alone, on a lonely hill, by Messiah, singularly. That's the blood that's already on his garment when he comes (returns) to slaughter his enemies just prior to the beginning of the Kingdom of God.​




John
Jacob's prophesy in Genesis 49 even gives us understanding of what point of time we are living in this moment as it relates to His garments stained with the blood of salvation which is now behind us, and the blood of His enemies that His clothes will one day be sprinkled with which is future .

Judah's Lion having won mastery over the ultimate enemy of satan death and hell has taken the prey : "from the prey, my son "
Having taken the prey, the Lion has now ascended up: "my son, thou art gone up"
Fully satisfied from the victory won " it is Finished" the Lion has gone up , majestic and fully matured at the height of His regal Power to "couch" at the Right Hand of God: " he couched as a lion, and as an old lion"
You can see this wildlife depiction given by Jacob on nature films where a lion is pictured "couched", relaxed and non-threatening over a fallen prey, enjoying the satisfaction of his success, without creating vexation to others, as a host of other animals linger on the periphery hoping for an eventual leftover snack unafraid yet never daring to get to close lest they "rouse Him up"
"who shall rouse him up?" ( Genesis 49)

Notice Jacob's description leaves no doubt that it is not a matter of if the Lion will eventually be roused up , that is a given, it is only a matter of "who" will do it .
This is the interim period we are living in today .
The Lion is couched as we speak .
The only question is will we still be here when He is roused up ?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Admittedly Jesus versus the Father is a different kind, or more manifest, sort of unification. And it's that particular unity that Judaism rejects, but which is the very basis for the Christian message.

To me, the "basis for the Christian message" is "love one another". Even the likes of Spinoza felt that this is a teaching all of us should appreciate and do.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
To me, the "basis for the Christian message" is "love one another". Even the likes of Spinoza felt that this is a teaching all of us should appreciate and do.

. . . Two things in that respect. One, God is love. And two, there's no greater love than to lay down one's life for one another. Combine those two, in one person, and you have the crux, so to say, of the Christian message. :cool:



John
 
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