ISIS is repeating what Mohammed did a 1400 years back.

[dust1n]

??

What does it matter if their War Manual is from the Quran or from the Pentagon's Law of War Manual?

 

[icehorse]

dust1n said:

Seems weird, since Muhammad never took over apart of the world that ISIS is currently engaged in.

Not weird at all - they believe that they are properly interpreting the scripture and applying the principles to their situation.

 

[icehorse]

What does it matter if their War Manual is from the Quran or from the Pentagon's Law of War Manual?

That's different (and possibly interesting) OP.

 

[RAYYAN]

Hey RAYYAN,

The version of the Quran that I read is extremely popular around the world - as I understand it, this translation has been reprinted over 260 million times. In my translation, it is ambiguous whether or not this command was directed ONLY at angels, or whether it was intended for Muslims as well.

Please stop with the insults.

Give us a link to what you say

 

[RAYYAN]

i kind of agree with the OP, there are numerous verses in hadith that point out the violence of muhammad . Islam is a recent religion and ordering others to kill those who are not moslems is barbaric to say the least and is that not what ISIS is doing now ?

I am sorry, if you don't show your source and the hadith, I can just say you are wrong

 

[icehorse]

Give us a link to what you say

http://www.pdfquran.com/en/

 

[RAYYAN]

http://www.pdfquran.com/en/

ok, I downloaded the Quran from the link you gave me, and Quran 8:12 says
"(Remember) When your lord revealed to the Angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smith over all their fingers and toes."

so it is clear that the Angels are the ones addresses in this verse. also THIS link can give you different translations you can pick which ever you wanted and they all say the same thing about the verse

 

[icehorse]

It is clear that Allah is addressing the angels. It is ambiguous whether the message is meant to also apply to believers. I understand that it's your interpretation that the message is meant to apply only to the angels, but many Muslims in the world would disagree with your interpretation.

 

[YmirGF]

What does it matter if their War Manual is from the Quran or from the Pentagon's Law of War Manual?

Because the former is seen to be the "Word of God ©®" whereas the Pentagon's Law of War Manual is not. A small, but important, distinction.

 

[dust1n]

That's different (and possibly interesting) OP.

I'm not sure how it is not relevant. If the contention is that ISIS is using the Quran as their playbook, why would it matter if their actions were inspired by Quran or Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". It's the actions that are horrible...

 

[dust1n]

Because the former is seen to be the "Word of God ©®" whereas the Pentagon's Law of War Manual is not. A small, but important, distinction.

What is important about this distinction?

 

[dust1n]

dust1n said:

Not weird at all - they believe that they are properly interpreting the scripture and applying the principles to their situation.

Okay, that is more or less true for every Muslim... the majority of whom are not in ISIS...

 

[YmirGF]

ok, I downloaded the Quran from the link you gave me, and Quran 8:12 says
"(Remember) When your lord revealed to the Angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smith over all their fingers and toes."

so it is clear that the Angels are the ones addresses in this verse. also THIS link can give you different translations you can pick which ever you wanted and they all say the same thing about the verse

That is not how I am reading it. To me, another party is be addressed and the message to the angels is simply inserted to weight the authoritarian angle. The message may specifically have been to the angels but in broadcasting that message to a larger audience the intent becomes muddied.

 

[RAYYAN]

It is clear that Allah is addressing the angels. It is ambiguous whether the message is meant to also apply to believers. I understand that it's your interpretation that the message is meant to apply only to the angels, but many Muslims in the world would disagree with your interpretation.

ok, if We say you are right, read the verses before that verse, it is clear that the event is in a battle field, do you agree? if so, what are you expecting them to do? exchange gifts?

 

[RAYYAN]

That is not how I am reading it. To me, another party is be addressed and the message to the angels is simply inserted to weight the authoritarian angle. The message may specifically have been to the angels but in broadcasting that message to a larger audience the intent becomes muddied.

ok let's see, in this battle, Muslims were 314 fighters and the enemy was over 1000 strong.

1. Do Muslims really have a choice on where to hit the enemy like what the verse says while each person is fighting 3 of his enemies once? it is illogical that God commands Muslims to do this.

2. let's the message was to the Muslims, what is wrong with that! it is a battle field, are they suppose to give them flowers?

 

[YmirGF]

ok let's see, in this battle, Muslims were 314 fighters and the enemy was over 1000 strong.

1. Do Muslims really have a choice on where to hit the enemy like what the verse says while each person is fighting 3 of his enemies once? it is illogical that God commands Muslims to do this.

2. let's the message was to the Muslims, what is wrong with that! it is a battle field, are they suppose to give them flowers?

You were complaining that Icehorse wasn't being specific enough about the passage quoted. My point was that you were not being specific either. The entire passage is not directed at "angels" but to a far larger audience via the narrative.

Oddly, I'd expect a real god, worthy of worship, to tell his followers how to avoid confrontations that would put the lives of his followers in jeopardy. The passage simply incites them and further along tells the reader that it is not the believer striking at the foes, it is none other than Allah. Allah sounds like such a peachy fellow.

ok, if We say you are right, read the verses before that verse, it is clear that the event is in a battle field, do you agree? if so, what are you expecting them to do? exchange gifts?

Ultimately, the attack was a result of the Muslims own prior actions, you would think Allah, in all his wisdom, would use the event as a teaching moment, but no, he just eggs them on and casts aspersions against disbelievers/unbelievers.

 

[RAYYAN]

You were complaining that Icehorse wasn't being specific enough about the passage quoted. My point was that you were not being specific either. The entire passage is not directed at "angels" but to a far larger audience via the narrative.

Fair enough if that is your understanding

Oddly, I'd expect a real god, worthy of worship, to tell his followers how to avoid confrontations that would put the lives of his followers in jeopardy. The passage simply incites them and further along tells the reader that it is not the believer striking at the foes, it is none other than Allah. Allah sounds like such a peachy fellow.

I expect in a little while you will ask again, Why God created people and give them freewill ......etc.
to answer your wonder, If Muslims didn't fight, they would have been killed. because the enemy came to them and wanted to kill them

 

[YmirGF]

What is important about this distinction?

C'mon, Dust1n, I know that you are not that dense. A book supposedly created by a divine being that is being used as a War Manual vs. a real manual, made by men?

 

[YmirGF]

Fair enough if that is your understanding



I expect in a little while you will ask again, Why God created people and give them freewill ......etc.
to answer your wonder, If Muslims didn't fight, they would have been killed. because the enemy came to them and wanted to kill them

Maybe Allah should have instructed them in the art of not ticking people off and making a general nuisance of themselves while in Mecca? Heaven forbid Muslims take responsibility for what befell them. It's so much better to beat the living crap out of those who thought to hold them accountable for their actions.

 

[RAYYAN]

Maybe Allah should have instructed them in the art of not ticking people off and making a general nuisance of themselves while in Mecca?

What does that mean! practice their religion in secret?
they didn't do anything except practicing their religion and practicing Freedom of Religion